On the Spot at BSC – Robert Ward interview

Robert Ward is a native of Baltimore and also wrote one of that cities defining novels, Red Baker. His first novel Shedding Skin is considered by many to be one of the defining books of the 60’s. Shedding Skin won National Endowment of the Arts award for first novel of exceptional merit and Red Baker won the PEN West prize for Best Novel of 1985. After the publication of Red Baker Ward was asked to write a script for Hill Street Blues and soon found him self on the writing staff for that show. He went on to find success in Hollywood producing and writing for shows like Miami Vice and New York Undercover.

In 2006 St. Martins/Minotaur published Ward’s latest novel Four Kinds of Rain as well as re-releasing Red Baker.

Bibliography:

Novels

Four Kinds of Rain (2006)
Grace – A fictional memoir about the Ward’s grandmother, a Civil Rights activist in Baltimore. (1998)
The Cactus Garden (1995)
The King of Cards (1993)
Red Baker (1985)
The Sandman (1978)
Cattle Annie and Little Britches (1977)
Shedding Skin (1972)

Television Series

Hill Street Blues (1985-87) (writer & producer)
Miami Vice (1988-89) (writer & co-executive producer)
New York Undercover (1994-98) (writer & supervising producer)
Level 9 (2001) (writer)
The Division (2002-03) (writer & consulting producer)

Television Movies
C.A.T. Squad: Python Wolf (1988) (writer)
Brotherhood of the Gun (1991) (writer)
Green Dolphin Beat (1994) (writer & executive producer)
Grace (unproduced) (novel)
Blood Money (aka Prodigal Son) (1999) (writer & executive producer)
The Bronx is Burning (2007) (actor)

Brian Lindenmuth - Like it or not there seems to be a certain level of “myth” surrounding your career. The critical success of Red Baker; the lack of sales; Hollywood comes calling; you find success in screenwriting. Your triumphant return to novel writing seems to be a center piece for the publicity of Four Kinds of Rain and the re-issue of Red Baker. How do you feel about this myth that has surrounded your career so far? Is it blown out of proportion?

Robert Ward - I wasn’t really aware that there was a myth about my career. If that sounds like false modesty I assure you it’s not. Though I knew some people had read Red Baker I wasn’t aware of very many, and didn’t know it was a cult book until a couple of years ago when I went to my first Bouchercon (in Las Vegas) and other writers kept coming up to me ,saying, “Whoa your Bob ward. You wrote Red Baker.” I was knocked out that so many other writers knew of the book. Knocked out and truly surprised. And, of course, pleased.

So that’s the first part. I just didn’t know. What I did know is that whenever I gave the book to people and they bothered to read it I would usually get a terrific response. Over the years many friends who read it would tell me that it was one of the best books they’d ever read, things like that. Was it frustrating not to have it still in print? Yeah, of course. I nearly killed myself writing it. It took five years, draft after draft…and I got ten grand for it from Dial. By the end I had ulcers, was sick as hell and flat broke. I don’t mean metaphorically broke, I mean dead broke. Had maybe two grand left, and no job and was too sick to write another book. My wife was working as a producer on All Things Considered, and we had a place in DC which we paid 140 bucks a month for. We wanted to buy a house but didn’t have enough dough to even get together a down payment of any kind. Then Hill Street happened, and I was suddenly in Hollywood and making a couple hundred grand a year. But I was forty when that happened…so man, I’ve paid my dues.

Brian Lindenmuth - Admittedly “Myth” may not be the best choice of words. But your career is a near template for that phrase “writers writer.”

Robert Ward – Yeah, I know but that seems to be changing a little. They were teaching The King of Cards in college up in Portland last year, and Red Baker is being taught in high schools. I got several letters last year from girls who were reading Red in high school in Missouri. They wanted to know how I’d come to write it, etc.

Brian Lindenmuth - After its release Red Baker went on to receive critical acclaim and became an award winner as well as becoming a minor classic in the genre, but it didn’t sell well. It also led to your work on Hill Street Blues which was the beginning of a long screen writing career in Hollywood. Looking back would you rather have had Red Baker be more of a financial success or are you happy with the way things have played out?

Robert Ward - Well, those are two questions. When Red came out the Yuppie thing was all that was happening in publishing. “Bright Lights Big City” was huge, and everyone was imitating it…and here I come with a novel about steelworkers who lose their jobs. 36 publishers turned Red Baker down before Joyce Johnson at Dial had the guts to publish it. I might add that all 36 publishers turned it down in one day. My agent at the time sent the book out in a mass submission thinking it was so good that we might get a bidding war going and nobody bid. No one at all. At the end of the day I called him and he just said, “Sorry Bob, nobody bid. Not one of them.” I was flattened. I just lay in bed for two days at my wife’s place in DC (I was still living in the Village in NYC at the time, spent weekends with her down in DC)…and stared at the ceiling. I literally couldn’t get up. I had spent five years on a book, which I knew was a strong novel, and nobody wanted it. One guy, an editor who’ll remain nameless, called me personally to tell me he was overwhelmed by the book; it brought tears to his eyes. When I asked him if he was going to buy it, he said “Buy it? No way.” I said “But why? You just said you loved it?” he told me that he did love it but that Red Baker cheats on his wife and we don’t like our working class heroes to do anything that immoral. We hold them to a higher standard than we do middle class heroes. “I said: “So what you’re telling me is that if I had made Red more sentimental like say The Walton’s on TV…you’d have published it?” He said,”Yeah, I know it sounds awful but yeah, probably I would have.” That was almost the end …I mean I thought well hell if that’s how they see things I’m totally screwed. I just wanted to roll over and die. But that only lasted a couple of days. I’ve always been resilient, and I had a few drinks and just said, “Fuck em I won’t let assholes like that guy stop me. Somebody will see how good this book is.” The thing is I never doubted that my book was good. I knew it was. And two weeks later Joyce Johnson at Dial came through for me. She was Jack Kerouac’s girlfriend and is a wonderful writer herself. She told me Jack would have liked the novel. Which meant more to me than anything anyone else had said. It was worth all the rejection just to hear her say that. She could only give me ten grand, but it was never about the money.

So now I get the gig at Hill Street, and I go to Hollywood, and suddenly I’m this hot writer in LA, but man it was hard. I had to learn a whole new discipline at forty and it wasn’t easy. But I got to work with David Milch and Jeff Lewis, who became one of my best pals, and Waylon Greene who wrote the Wild Bunch, and Dick Wolfe who later created Law and Order, and those guys taught me how to do the TV gig. I love all those guys, and consider them real artists. I went out there with like 1500 bucks in the bank and a couple of years later I was turning down gigs in the hundred thousands because for a while I had my pick of projects. But in the back of my head I always wanted to go back to writing novels. I never lost that urge to do my own thing, and the money wasn’t an issue. I still don’t make much writing books but they are my books, and no other writer can write over them, no producer can fire me and bring in another guy. They are my statement about the world, and in the end, when you’re dead and gone, isn’t that what you wanted? To make your own statement. I mean, didn’t you want to be an artist who really gave a shit and lived passionately and wrote honestly? That’s all I ever wanted when I started at 20 and it’s all I want now. That’s why I wanted to have money. I never sold out, and don’t believe you have to. By the way, I don’t believe any of the guys I mentioned sold out either. They just happened to be screenwriters first and foremost. First and foremost I’m a novelist. I like movies and TV. I love books.

So, in the end I had to go the long way around. Would I like to have Red Baker read by everyone and the world to know who I was back in 83? Sure, but even before I sent the book out I knew it wasn’t going to happen easily. The guys I dug as writers, Steinbeck, and Hemingway, and Hammett, and Sinclair Lewis, and Dreiser, and James M Cain…social critics and hard boiled writers, were way out of fashion then. I wrote what I had to write, and I knew it was going to be tough. So, in the end, I’ve survived. Now I’ve done Four Kinds of Rain which I think is a worthy successor to my other books. And don’t forget “The King of Cards” and “Grace” which I also wrote while I was out here. They’re not exactly crime novels but they are all part of my work…

I am not one bit bitter about the way things went down. I had to prove myself in many ways…including journalism, and I’ve done it. My two granddads were tough guys, one a carpenter, the other a ship’s captain. My father was in intelligence at Pearl Harbor after the bombings and helped bring down the head of the Japanese Air Force. All the Ward men are tough, and survivors. None of us ever acted tough, that’s for the movies. But I don’t know of one guy in my family who ever gave up. I wasn’t going to be the first.

Brian Lindenmuth - Is that nameless editor still in the business?

Robert Ward - Retired.

Brian Lindenmuth - It’s funny that you mention Steinbeck as I was talking with someone about him recently. My brother and sisters range in age from 13 to 37 and I have two children of my own that are 5 & 4. I mention this because I have noticed a change in the curriculum over the years and it seems that certain writers that my oldest brother and I had to read, like Steinbeck, aren’t required reading anymore. Almost as if they have fallen out of favor.

Robert Ward – Steinbeck was a great writer, cared about the poor and voiceless. These days TV has “glamorized” the worlds of entertainment to the extent that people have lost interest in real lives. If you write about Anna Wintour (The Devil Wears Prada) you get a hit movie. If you write about a steelworker who can’t get a job, you get to be a writer’s writer. Still I’d rather be the latter.

Brian Lindenmuth – I re-read On the Road a couple of years back and it just didn’t have the same pull as when I was 18. I’m now convinced that it is a book for a certain age group. I also re-read Travels with Charley and it has held up surprisingly well. Are they comparable and which one is better?

Robert Ward – On The Road is a wonderful book when you’re eighteen. I read it and called a friend Spencer Rowe, and we hitchhiked to Florida the very next day. That was the effect is had on me. Is it as good now? Well, maybe not. But I still remember it fondly, and loved Kerouac’s acceptance of all things…and his lyrical style. Travels with Charlie was fun too, but I haven’t read it for many years and don’t recall it as well. I do recall Steinbeck’s other books, including In Dubious Battle, which was a great book about a labor strike, and Tortilla Flats, and Cannery Row, which I just re-read and reminded me of…Kerouac. I mean in its acceptance of bums and hustlers and cons…Its love of low life. They maybe had more in common than we noticed. The bottom line is they are both real writers, not punks with a Yale education and a three picture deal to make lame action movies or heartless comedies.

Brian Lindenmuth - I think that was the part of the appeal of the whole “Beat Generation” was that that there wasn’t a formal education involved but a vivid enthusiasm and love of writing coupled with a broad acceptance of the humanity, even if its flawed, that is there in everyone.

As a screenwriter and a Baltimoron what do you think of the two shows that Baltimore may be best known for, Homicide and The Wire?

Robert Ward – See below.

Brian Lindenmuth – It’s very easy to watch the second season of The Wire and think of Red Baker. There is some resonance between the two. I don’t recall seeing your name anywhere but were you involved in The Wire at all?

Robert Ward – I wasn’t involved. They’ve never asked me to write for them, either on Homicide or The Wire. I don’t mind. If I’d been working on The Wire I might not have written Four Kinds of Rain. By the way, I just heard yesterday, Otto Penzler just chose it as one of the Ten Best Books of 2006. In his column in the New York Sun.

Brian Lindenmuth – Congratulations on the naming of Four Kinds of Rain as a Top 10 book, it is well deserved.

What do you think Red’s political affiliation would be? An old school Kennedy/FDR democrat or that rare Maryland entity a Republican or even that third option that seems to be gaining momentum, indifferent.

Robert Ward – Red would be a Democrat. He would hate most Republicans. Like his creator does.

Brian Lindenmuth - One of the lessons that Red learns by the end of the books is the value of Wanda and her love for him. He comes to appreciate her in a way that he hadn’t before. Is that the ultimate lesson of Red Baker that there are other riches to be had in life other then monetary gain?

Robert Ward – Absolutely. Red comes out of a culture that doesn’t understand how valuable his family is. Also, when I lived in Baltimore there was a kind of criminal mentality that was everywhere. A guy might be a family man, work for a living but he also might have scams running on the side. And quite a few of the working class guys I knew had side girlfriends. It was considered cool. Gave a little edge to your existence. Great fun until you are faced with losing it all.

Brian Lindenmuth - One of the central themes of Red Baker and Four Kinds of Rain is that the meritocracy element of the American Dream isn’t as absolute or steadfast as some would have you believe. Is that equation of merit + hard work = advancement & prosperity exclusive to the more fortunate in society.

Robert Ward – I think that we are more of a meritocracy than some people say. I know that most people in the middle class get their piece of the pie if they work hard, and make smart choices. Yeah, there is an old boy network who helps the rich but if you’re good at what you do you can break into it. The problem begins when the work you do is being phased out. How can a steelworker become a computer programmer overnight? It can be done but its tough, and Red isn’t able to pull it off.

Brian Lindenmuth - Both Red and Dr. Wells have to commit a crime in order to improve their respective stations in life but with different results. Red becomes a Heroic Failure, gaining a certain level of insight in his Pyrrhic victory and is able to move on in life. Dr. Wells becomes all consumed by his criminal act and that act destroys him. Red finds a deeper love for his wife and Dr. Wells finds a deep seated hatred or contempt for his. Red loves his son deeply but Dr. Wells has resentment for his. Both played a part in the deaths of their best friends. Are the two characters flip sides of the same coin?

Robert Ward - You’re right about them both. Red finally grows up. Working as a company guy, like his dad did before him infantilizes him. He believes the steel company will always be there. When it dies, he dies with it. But he’s able to become reborn.

Bob Wells is a different cat. He has a Utopian dream which he can’t let go of. He dreams, also of being good, and getting credit for his goodness. And perhaps in another time-like the 60′s-he would have been regarded as a Saint. But America is now a meaner place. People who give their lives to the poor are generally considered suckers now. They should be like Brittany, and Paris and make money and be famous and be on the E-Channel. This is the same disease we talked about regarding Steinbeck. I mean why did he waste his time writing about poor people? Why didn’t he get a TV deal and write Beverly Hills 90210? I mean, like dude, poor people stink and they’re stupid or they wouldn’t be poor. Right? This is the world the Republicans have made. So Bob is not only poor, but he also doesn’t get any respect. If he had been “smart” he would have been a radio personality like his pal Rudy, the guy who stole his wife. He expected to be poor but he didn’t expect to be considered a fool. That’s what turns him against the world. He makes the wrong decision but the world turned against him first. There are many old hippies and radicals who harbor these feelings. I know a lot of them, and the positive reaction to the book tells me there are many more…

Brian Lindenmuth - Is Dr. Wells destroyed by his criminal act or by his selfishness? He seemed almost pre-destined to fail the moment that he lied to Jesse.

Robert Ward – Yes. That’s the path that kills him. He lies and he then knows he has to get money. On the other hand what was he supposed to do? He’s in his 50′s. A woman like her, sexy, beautiful, artistic, isn’t going to come along every day for him. Probably, at his age, and considering his milieu, never again. He has a pretty good argument, right? I’ve helped so many people or tried to, what if I do this one crime…won’t all the other good deeds still put me on the plus side of the spiritual ledger? What he does is wrong but the world has gone wrong too. Any kind of success is now considered fair. The world only cares about money and no one gives a damn how you get it. Non-people like Paris Hilton make millions for just walking around. So why shouldn’t he do it? What he doesn’t understand is that once he opens Pandora’s Box he can’t close it. That is, once his appetite for greed gets loose he has no conception of the amount of anger and fury and bitterness he really feels. And how much he’ll do to keep the power and the money. In the end he becomes a monster.

Brian Lindenmuth - A quick Google search bears the following information there is a Robert Ward that is a Psychologist and one that is a blues guitar player. Dr. Bobby is of course a psychiatrist and a blues guitar player. Did you know about them or is this just a happy coincidence?

Robert Ward – That’s funny. I have records by Robert Ward the bluesman. He’s great. I’d love to meet him sometimes. The shrink I don’t know. There’s also another Robert Ward, writer. He’s out here and works in TV sometimes. People get us mixed up.

Brian Lindenmuth - Is Jesse Reardon modeled after any singer in particular? One could pick up traces of Lucinda Williams or a Joan Osborn (on stage not on album) or of course that great white female blues belter herself Janis Joplin.

Robert Ward – Well, it’s funny you ask that? Her physical self is based on my wife Celeste Wesson. Her singing is based on Lu Anne Barton, one of my favorite singers. Texas, r and b.

Brian Lindenmuth - Dr. Bobby’s character arc takes him to a place that is far away from where he started but at the same time isn’t that far from his original position. At times he is comic, introspective, selfish, and farcical. Should he ultimately be considered a tragic character?

Robert Ward – Tragic may be too heavy a word for him. But I do hope readers feel sympathy and compassion for him. He meant well, and he was good for a long time. Maybe ultimately, he was a victim of trying to be too good. He found it impossible to compromise…and in that way he remains a child until the end. There are few greater monsters than someone convinced of their own innocence and goodness. It’s a very American disease.

Brian Lindenmuth - The Baltimore Sun and the Evening Sun in the 80′s and early 90′s produced such a bumper crop of crime fiction writers. Off the top of my head there’s

Laura Lippman
Rob Hiaasen
David Simon
Lisa Respers
Dan Fesperman
Ben Neihart
Sujata Massey
And of course yourself

If there are others please feel free to add them. It just seems like an inordinate amount. Was there something in the water or did you guys form some secret cabal to take over the world? I’ve read David Simon’s after word to the new re-issue of Homicide that covers some of this time frame.

Robert Ward – I was a reporter but not for The Sun. I worked in New York, mainly for magazines. Stared with a piece on Penthouse on the Death of Baltimore’s block, though it didn’t die. Hung out with Blaze Starr, and dated a stripper for a while. That was fun. That piece got me going with New Times Magazine, which had just started up. Did many pieces for them about all kinds of con artists ,hustlers. Did a piece on Larry Flint for them, another on Marshall Ky, ex emperor of name, and fly boy genius. Wrote for Esquire, GQ, and had a ball doing it all. Reporting made you look at details, get things right. By the way, did you know a piece I did on Reggie Jackson joining the Yanks, later helped informed a great book called Ladies and gentlemen the Bronx is Burning by Jon Mahler. Now it’s been turned into a mini series for ESPN and I play myself in it. The reporter interviewing Reggie. Just shot my scenes last month in Mystic Conn. Have a good sized part, and it’ll be aired next summer right after the Home Run derby at the All Star Game. July 3rd, I think is the date.

Brian Lindenmuth - My apologies, I thought that you wrote for the Sun at some point.

Speaking of Blaze Starr I ran into her a couple of times selling jewelry at the Carrolltowne Mall in Eldersburg in Carroll County at a kiosk. She still had a certain charming, over the top pull even at that age. You just naturally gravitated towards her.

There is a long history of journalists who have turned to mystery/crime fiction writing. Do journalists make the best crime fiction writers?

Robert Ward - Journalists make good writers, period, because they go get stories, they understand human fallibility. Being a journalist is the best training for a fiction writer. Any kind. Look at Stephen Crane, Hemingway, Ring Lardner, mark twain…the list goes on forever. The worst training is being an academic. I know I’ve done both. Yeah, I guess if you’re Saul bellow it works out ok, but man, for every bellow there are a hundred guys stuck in schools trying to figure out what to write after their first novel.

Brian Lindenmuth - Your right it would be quite a list of writers, regardless of any genre classifications, that had journalistic backgrounds.

As the 1960′s recede into history it seems as if the focus has shifted a bit from an idyllic utopia to focusing more on the dark side. Are either of these extremes right or does the reality fall somewhere between the two opinions.

Robert Ward - I’ve always had a love of extremes, and the 60′s was the ultimate extreme time. Of course, it almost drove me mad, and it was, in the end, destructive…but like most people who lived it to the max, I don’t regret a single wild thing I did. Ok that’s not true there are a couple, and one in particular that I have paid for time and time again… I lost touch with my first son Jason. That’s taken years to begin to have a re-approachment. But in those days I felt I had no choice but to leave my first marriage. I was going mad doing the 50′s thing, as was every other person I know, men and women. All the guys and women I knew in the late 50′s in Baltimore got married young and all of them broke up. We were all too young to get married, way too immature. We were trying to live like we were pipe smoking corporate guys when we were 19…no way it was going to work anyway.

Then the 60′s came along and bam…who could have resisted the call of the era, romance, love, passion, revolution, community…not me. You can’t believe how dead the 50′s were for a kid like me. All anyone cared about in Baltimore was sports stars. I mean I loved Johnny U as much as anyone. I adored him, and the old Colts. But I was always aware of other things, books, film, all kinds of ideas. And no one but a few pals wanted to talk about them at all. We were like a secret society. If you mentioned you liked poetry at school you were immediately called a fag. Then along came the 60′s and I realized I had brothers and sisters everywhere who felt the same way and wanted to bust out. Man that was so exciting, so amazing. I went to S.F. ,lived in the Haight, had friends in the Lower East Side in NYC, hitched all over the country. I felt reborn in a lot of ways back then…The era made me much braver, and I wanted to live my life as an adventure, and have. On the other hand, there are people, and Bob Wells is one of them, who got trapped in the vague promises of the 60′s. They waited for the revolution and it never came and when it didn’t they were lost. I know too many people like that…I had one thing that got me through. Work. I loved, writing. That saw me through the bad times, and there were plenty of them…but I always had this faith…maybe it was blind faith…that my work would see me through. That and I loved people. So I was able to move to NYC and make it in the magazine world. I had no money, but I could deliver the goods, one piece after another…and I loved the men and women I worked with…Man, living in NYC and being a journalist…was so damned exciting. I knew everyone I ever read, James Baldwin, and Mailer, and Tom Wolfe, and Larry L King, and Roy Blount, in the older generation, and in my own, great editors like John Lombardi, John Larsen, Susan Lyme, Joyce Johnson, Fran McCullough. Writers like Lucian Truscott, and Bob Sam Ansen, Harry Stein, David Black, novelists like Richard Price, John Eskow, Scott Spencer, Dermet McEvoy. You were constantly surrounded by people doing amazing work and you measured yourself against them. Same in Hollywood…Got to work with great writer/producers, who wouldn’t tolerate bad scripts. We all learned from Steven Bocchco. A great teacher. Great man. You couldn’t imagine turning in some piece of shit just to get the money. That didn’t happen on Hill Street Blues, or Miami Vice. So work, and being around great writers ands editors, and producers saved me from becoming caught up in the past…like Bob Wells did.

Brian Lindenmuth - Over at Overnight Success? on Crime Fiction Blog you wrote the following ”Even now it’s out of print again…but there are a lot of copies floating around on the Internet, a new way to keep writing alive.” Except for the writer not getting some portion of a new book sale does the internet almost make the term “out of print” obsolete?

Robert Ward - Well, yes and no. The Internet certainly brought me back. But only to a certain extent. I mean you could buy Red Baker on the web if you knew about it. But until I wrote Four Kinds of Rain very few people knew about ‘Red’. Mike Connelly was kind enough to write a brilliant new intro to the book, which caught people’s attention, and St. Martin’s was great to re-publish it. Of course, they wouldn’t have done that without a new book… Four Kinds of Rain…so the bottom line is you still have to produce new work to get people aware of your older books. I am thrilled to see Red Baker getting bought and I hope the same will happen for “The King of Cards” which is one of my favorite books. It’s about a young kid, Tom Fallon, who learns to live life as a hustler, and con man through a crazy and wonderful friend named Jeremy Raines. It’s very auto-biographical. Jeremy Raines was really the greatest hustler and genius businessman/con I ever knew Jesse Rossman. He actually invented ID Cards with photos on them for the Baltimore School System….so he wasn’t a total con…The con part came in cause he couldn’t really deliver the cards. He had a bunch of hippies and lunatics working for him. He was one of the most charismatic and wonderful people I ever met. We were very close, though I wanted to kill him a lot of the time. The story ends up being a crime story too…because eventually Tommy and Jeremy have to go see some very shaky financiers. Hopefully, St. Martin’s will bring it back out again with my next book…so people can discover it. It’s a wild romp, and almost all of the stories in it are true. Or kind of true, anyway. What do you want, I’m a writer. If I can improve a story I’m going to do it.

Brian Lindenmuth - Its interesting that you used the same phrase that Dr. Bobby used “I never sold out.” Do you align yourself with Red’s modicum of success or with Dr. Bob’s flameout? Which character is closer to who you are?

Robert Ward - Brian, I’m all the characters. Really. I identify as much with Wanda as I do Red. Also Ace, and even Vinnie. In ‘Rain’ I identify with Bob, of course. His wit, his anger, but I also identify with Jesse, who doesn’t want to be fucked over any more by men who let her down. That’s the great thing about writing. You’re all the characters.

Brian Lindenmuth - Let me pick your brain for a second. It’s hinted at near the end of Red Baker but what was the general reaction around town when the Harbor Place was opening up? I was probably 5 when it opened and remember visiting it early on but I know nothing of the general reaction.

Robert Ward - Generally speaking, people loved it. Thousands of people came down, walked around, ate food, shopped. Only a few nostalgia crazed guys like myself missed Conely’s Seafood house on the wharf, or old Pier One, where my grandad shipped out.

Brian Lindenmuth - It’s easy to imagine that you were a Baltimore Colts fan, you’ve already said as much. Do you recognize The Ravens as the team of Baltimore now or are you one of the hold outs. The hold outs seemed to have quieted down substantially after the Super Bowl win in 2000.

Robert Ward - I am a total old Colts fan. Knew Johnny U. Alex Hawkins, met Art Donovan, Lenny Moore, have Raymond Berry’s autograph,,,says “To Robert from Raymond Berry”…When the Colts lost a game to the 49ers in the 50′s, thus putting them out of the playoffs, I locked myself in my room and wouldn’t come out to eat dinner. I mean I was planning to starve myself to death…they’d be sorry then!

That said, I now adore the Ravens. Love McNair, Jamal, Heap, Billick, Ray Lewis, Adalius, Ed Reed…They are awesome! If they have a showdown with the Colts I gotta get a ticket and fly back. (Can you get me one?)

Brian Lindenmuth - I hold no ill will towards the Colts as I’m probably too young to do so. But I am hoping for a Ravens/Colts match up. It will be an interesting game plus I think that the Colts are basically a soft team and the Ravens are hardcore tough. I’ll admit it Ed Reed scares me a bit, he’s a beast!!! A guy I know works at a bar/restaurant and Johnny Ogden came in sat down at the bar and ordered 150 wings. He ate every single damn one of them too. I saw Todd Heap and his wife at the store one day; he is a hell of a nice guy. And to be fair I met Johnny U a couple of times and he too was a hell of a nice guy.

If that game shapes up we’ll have to see what we can do to get you out here.

I think your story in Baltimore Noir is one of the better ones. Do you still feel the pull of Charm City like Thomas Weeks does in Fat Chance?

Robert Ward – I love Baltimore. I used to say I had a love/hate relationship with the place but as I get older it’s more love/love. I miss the old town, all the close friends, the Baltimore black humor. I might get an apartment there, and start coming back more. I usually stay with Jed Dietz when I do come back. He’s the Head of the Maryland Film Commission and one of the greatest guys I know, as is his whole family, Julia, Edith, Robert, and Elihu, who went to St. John’s. I still have many of my old Baltimore pals, Bobby “Mad Dog” Garrett, John Brandau, John Littman, Johnny White…Ned Myers…One of them Scott McKenna just died and it made me realize how fragile the mortal bond is. You gotta see the people you love while they’re still around.

Brian Lindenmuth – Last question:

With the recent re-issue of Red Baker and the recent release of Four Kinds of Rain, which has gotten some strong reviews and is getting a good push from St. Martins, will we see more novels from you?

Robert Ward - Yup. I’m working on a new crime novel now. This one set in LA, about the FBI. Story I heard from a cop, and I think it’s very strong.

I’ve done about 120 pages, and if this freaking interview ever really ends I plan on getting back to it! (Just kidding, Brian).

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