I think that was just speculation. From what I’ve heard Lucasfilm is going to film a season or more to begin with, then shop it around after the fact. I don’t see it going to HBO unless Lucas throws in some topless cantina girls in every episode.

- Zach

I don’t want to get too much into the sensibility that I think was lost between NH ESB and ROTJ due to the passing of Brackett. I’m not in a position to know how much she influenced ESB, and those who are seem to always wave on exactly what her contribution was, but IMHO – being familiar with Brackett’s other work, sense a lot of her in ESB that was simply not there in RotJ. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that the bulk of her work was written out.

I thought it was announced as an HBO production, which if that is the case it should be interesting. HBO has high production value (not to mention it’s Lucas so it’s going to have tech/cheddar behind it) IMHO and this would be a very unique combination in placing what is probably the biggest franchise of it’s kind in such a network. If it happens, I’m pretty optimistic, and though I’m not sure it will be what people think, but I think that’s probably exactly what it needs. Realistically if this is done with some intelligence it could be the most awesome thing ever and take the franchise even further.

A New Hope was nothing more or less than a space opera, a beautifully done, but classically light space opera. Empire Strikes Back was a darker film, hitting some heavier themes.

With RotJ, they swung back to pure space opera, and perhaps too far. PM and the rest of the prequels tried to follow up and expand on the weighter themes, and perhaps went to far. So, the question becomes, will a TV show be able to restore balance back to the Plot?

A live action TV show? Whoa. Hmmm…it could work. Clearly, there’s enough room in the universe for that kind of expansion. It would really totally depend if they could learn the right lessons from the good SF series like, as mentioned, the remake of Battlestar Galactica, or Babylon 5, or the new Dr. Who.

Yeah, definitely. All the Luke/Vader/Emperor stuff is excellent, but that moment where where Luke flips out and starts battering Vader into submission is nothing short of epic. In term of isolated scenes, that’s probably my favorite moment of all the films.

About the live-action show, I’ll have to wait and see. I was really against the idea when word of it broke out a few years back, but then I got to thinking that if I can enjoy certain novels or the Knights of the Old Republic RPGS as much as I do, then why wouldn’t I want to see more live action stuff provided it’s done properly? I think it could be pretty good if Lucas follows through on his idea about the show focusing on the “regular folks” in the universe rather than the ruling class covered in the films. I certainly won’t be expecting Milch levels of television perfection, and probably not even something as good as Battlestar in its best moments, but I could see it being worthwhile in a way that might even attract some people who were dissatisfied with the prequels.

- Zach

- Zach

Back to the Jabba scene, a part of me always correlated Luke’s entry into the Palace like one prolonged Western scene. Admittedly it could have just been the environment itself. I have always loved that Jabba recognized what Luke was and was trying to do (mind trick). I also think that if it wasn’t this, they would have had to have shown us Luke’s proficiency/training increase somehow before the final/throne scene.

Speaking of that throne room confrontation. I’m not sure if music had ever been better in any film ever. John Williams put it down there.

What do you think about the live-action tv program?

- Zach

The worst thing about Phantom Menace is the depressing looming knowledge that all the Jedis will die, Anakin turns to Darth Vader, and the government fails. Bah! I don’t want to see this $h!t. If I wanted depressing I would watch the news.

There is a thematic aspect about the return to Tatooine that I enjoyed. Admittedly it had nothing to do with when it was actually shot or even existed as a concept, but I after the prequels, the idea that Luke went back home – a master of his emotions – to a planet where Vader never did, really spoke to me.

I’m sure you follow the EU discussions, but the idea that Vader never goes down to the planet in New Hope (and yet we seem him take the front line in just about any opportunity, including ESB with) Hoth always offers another comparison of father and son for me.

Seems a bit on the cynical side to me. I can’t recall the quote exactly, but I remember Lucas saying in an interview that he put certain things in TPM because he felt this was the only movie in the prequels were he had time to do a few “jazz riffs” as he put it i.e. stuff he simply wanted to put in, well, because he wanted to. I think the pod race is one such thing. Sure, it made a cool video game (as did any number of sequences in the originals). But if you know anything about Lucas, then you know he’s always been a huge racing fan. Combine this with the obvious influence from the Ben-Hur chariot race sequence, and I think Lucas’s influence for the scene becomes obvious. I mean, what’s more likely-that Lucas went out of his way to make sure the toy conspiracy scenes were based off of art and hobbies that have been important to him throughout his life, or simply that he was making scenes based on his influences, scenes which the marketing people thus based their products off of?

“PS. I defy anybody to find anything in the 1st three movies as painful as Jar Jar Binks or as show-stoppingly ludicrous as mitchlorins.”

I never understood the vitriolic backlash against midi-chlorians. They don’t change the fact that the Force is a mystical energy field. They merely affect why certain people can interact with that energy field, while at the same time thematically supporting the greater Star Wars idea of living beings co-existing in an interconnected manner. I’ve heard some people claim the idea is a poor one because it means that “not everyone can be a Jedi.” To that I say: not everyone can be a star athlete, or an artist, or a singer, etc.

As for stuff as “painful” as Jar Jar: a burping frog thing. Leia’s terrible “foul stench” line. Goofy mouse droids. A big naked dog-ape who walks around going “RRRARAOOOORRRR.” Teddy bears who take down advanced combat troops by throwing rocks. Cantina aliens that are obviously guys wearing plastic masks. A brother and sister making out. A big swamp monster who swallows and spits out a droid who toots like a baby. Leia transitioning from a kick ass leader in A New Hope to a drugged out jungle princess who’s so helpless she needs to be held. A bunch of soldiers in camouflage who bring along a shiny golden droid as part of their covert raiding party. Teddy bears who throw rocks.

Did I mention teddy bears who throw rocks yet?

Star Wars has (among other things), always been a goofy space opera.

- Zach

And this is a problem with a lot of sequels to successful movies. After the first one’s a hit, the second one tends to be…more self-conscious. It’s got to be all that and the bag of chips, and this seldom makes for a more enjoyable movie.

RtoJ is not a great movie. It’s a good movie. Personally, I’ll never forgive Lucas for not letting it be James Earl Jones in the Darth Vader suit when the helmet finally came off. But it comes back to the question, what will you over look for love? By the time that good movie came around, I loved the characters, and I was willing to go along for the ride and found it a good ride. Not as good as the first two, but good enough And we are in agreement, the Death Star scene was a total rehash.

But PM wasn’t able to make the emotional connection for me, and I was READY to have it happen. I wanted to fall in love all over again. But it failed to connect, and so I failed to overlook the flaws.

About the Han rescue in Jedi, it’s the stretch of any Star Wars film I have the most trouble sitting through. Yeah, it’s kind of cool when Luke pulls off some acrobatics, but looking at the series as a whole I think it was a miscalculation to spend half of the final film involved in what is essentially a side quest. Throw in a Death Star rehash, Leia playing jungle queen, and the complete taming of Han Solo, and to me Senate scenes, underwater voyages, and pod races are looking better and better.

Also, it’s hardly like the prequels were the genesis of Star Wars merchandising. Kids were shooting at imperial walkers on their Atari games long before they were pod-racing on Nintendo or Playstation.

- Zach

And this is the heart of the matter; how much are we willing to overlook for love? Quite a bit, as it turns out, but not everything and different people will overlook different things.

As to the events of ESB, yes, disobeying Yoda was a turning point in Luke’s character (sub-point, Yoda must have known there was a chance it would work. He could have easily stopped Luke by disabling the ship), but it still almost screwed up absolutely everything. It was a hell of a risky move. If Luke had turned, which was a genuine possibility, untrained Leia (and we can talk about that as a flaw in strategy), wouldn’t have stood a chance against the pair of them.

As to who actually destroyed the Sith, man, can you go nuts on the argument here, because, ironically, it was a family affair. Anakin dropped him down the reactor shaft, but if Luke hadn’t gone in there and almost gotten himself fried by the Emporer, Vader never would have turned back. And, of course, without Leia, Luke wouldn’t have survived to go in and risk his neck.

Well it becomes a problem in separating the two to fit any stance. As pointed out earlier, the Jedi avoid attachment. Telling Luke the man they wanted him to kill was his father would be exactly what they didn’t want. Secondly (and this might be personal POV retcon), Yoda seems very disappointed when he say “tell you he did?” (I’m paraphrasing). Yoda and Ben were fundamentally wrong (as they had been for a long time). It’s an honest reaction, as (Yoda especially) was severely humbled. All his talk about ‘not judging’ were lessons he learned first hand, not to mention Palpatine personally killed Jedi Masters/Council members in about a breath.

*”Yes, Yoda didn’t want Luke to go to the rescue. And he was right, at least in the short term. Luke walked into the trap prepared for him and screwed the situation up. He lost a hand, nearly got killed, and nearly went over to the dark side and had to be rescued, again, by Leia. If she hadn’t heard him, that would have been it.”*

I’m not so sure about that. In fact I think it was the biggest step of Luke’s character. This is where Luke decided he would not be attached to the foolish Jedi Dogma that destroyed the Jedi before. He would follow his feelings, but not be mastered by them (like Vader). Not only that, but it is at this point where Luke senses ‘good’ in Vader. It was Vader’s inability to finish Luke in ESB that put the idea in his head that he could be redeemed. It is the central point of the movie (Note, again – the name of the movie – Return of the Jedi = Anakin”) That the point of the saga essentially becomes restoring balance, about destiny, and it is Anakin’s (not Luke’s) destiny to do so (which he fulfills).

Yoda still didn’t get it at the end. Remember what he tells Luke, “Do not underestimate the power of the Emperor”. He still has the idea that it will be Luke that destroys the Sith. It’s his father, a notion Yoda has hardly ever swallowed well.

I do completely agree. The rescue was absolutely great to watch and I love it, but as I got older (and having an interest in the military in general) it always struck me as odd. It’s still great fun, and a moment/scene that etched int my mind as a good thing! For me though, if it was a friend of mine, I’d just call use my status as a war hero and destroyer of the Death Star (the only reason the alliance still existed), get on my Iphone and call an airstrike. Tell him to thank me later.

Jay: I had to think about what you said about the Jabba the Hutt and the rescue in RotJ. And then I went an engaged in that process known as “fan rationale” which is part of the fun of any really good universe.

Here’s my take: You’re right, the rebels were a _military_ power. They currently had a war to fight, and it wasn’t going all that well (he couldn’t be expected to know about the acquisition of secret plans and stuff), so it would be a reasonable assumption, even if he was aware of the part Han played in blowing up the Death Star, that the rebels would accept Han’s loss as a kind of casualty of war, they might not like it, but thems the breaks and we’ve got more important things to do. The part that made no sense was them sending so many of their top people to rescue this one guy. I can see someone with a decent sense of strategy and no sense of personal loyalty missing that one completely.

I saw Palpatine’s dissing of the Jedi as the usual Evil disdain of Good because Good has a tendancy to look weak to Evil.

Yes, Yoda didn’t want Luke to go to the rescue. And he was right, at least in the short term. Luke walked into the trap prepared for him and screwed the situation up. He lost a hand, nearly got killed, and nearly went over to the dark side and had to be rescued, again, by Leia. If she hadn’t heard him, that would have been it. Maybe Yoda should have gotten the whole picture, but “Always in motion is the future.”

Zach: Wouldn’t have worked. Problem with being me. Bad writing (or what I perceive as bad writing) really does make me furious, and I really do stay that way. I used to have a completionist streak, but somewhere along the line I lost it. But I still love the originals, and that’s not going away either. Which in this Brave New World filled with Star Wars Stuff leaves me a little stuck. And torn.

It’s only a complete change of context if you actually believe the Jedi were always intended to represent the unwavering epitome of Justly Good. I don’t believe this is the case, but then again what you call “looking hard” and “rationalizing” I simply call listening to dialogue. And in terms of that dialogue, I can’t help but think Obi-Wan was a bit of a shady bastard at times throughout the originals.

“After all that, WHY was I supposed to spend another 10 dollars and 3 hours to go see the next one?”

Closure, perhaps? I mean, at the risk of being a bit snide here, you seem like you might need it given that you wrote a “Phantom Menace had no magic” article ten years after the film’s release.

- Zach

That said, I’d say that the LOTR comparison is not a proper one. It’s more comparable if we offer the what if of movies being made of the 2nd age of Middle Earth 10 years from now. I’d say no the worlds could be completely different, even contrary as we know in our OWN world that just because institutions may carry the same name, they are hardly the same entities.

I don’t see how you can come out of the original trilogy (especially when watching Phantom Menace with adult eyes, and making that perspective the contrast) how the Jedi were the ‘good guys’. Yoda did not want Luke to go save his friends. At that moment Yoda stopped being the benevolent task master – he had an agenda. The defeat of Palpatine and redemption of Vader was never a victory of the Jedi (as we know it), it was a triumph of Luke himself (and through him) Anakin. Note that it was Anakin who killed Palpatine,someone considered not redeemable by both Yoda and Ben. Yet the movie is his namesake – “The Return of the Jedi” – the return of Anakin. THE Jedi – as Ben and Yoda weren’t and never were.

Palpatine’s disdain (how he even says “Jedi” in RotJ” is not completely unfounded. Even with Luke it was the Jedi who deceived. The only liars we meet in the original films are the Jedi. Luke never had to confront either Palpatine or Vader as liars – he had to confront Ben

It’s funny that the rescue at Jabba’s place is one of the points in the original trilogy that most bothers me (in a discussion sense, not truly bothersome in any real sense!). While Jaba was a powerful crime figure, it’s not conceivable that he would not fear what would have to be an absolute military power in the Rebellion, and why they didn’t just bring in a ship of some sort and threaten to bombard his holding from orbit – instead of a much more indirect and convoluted plan is baffling. Compared to the Empire, obviously the Rebellion was small, but we see the military power they can field when necessary and for them to concoct a plan you’d expect out of some independent group of pirates always struck me as odd – especially when you consider who they put at risk – Leia, and the last (as they knew it) Jedi.

One should not have to watch all three movies to understand what the hell’s going on, especially when you’re starting at the beginning. You didn’t have to wait until the middle of the Lord of the Rings trilogy to understand what was going on in Ep. 1. Basic idea was simple and quickly followed through, and the ornamentation on the plot comes after the basic idea and main characters are established.

And again, the problem I have with the revelations of the nature of the Jedi is not that they were portrayed ultimately as antagonsists, but that it was a complete change of the context established in the first three films. The story in the prequels is not a continuation of the universe established in the first three, it’s more like a total rewrite that kept some of the character names.

And looking at the prequels as a separate entity… I’ll be blunt. Perhaps I am a shallow lover of fairy tales, but on the long list of reasons I didn’t like them was because I didn’t like any of those new characters. Didn’t like the arrogant stupid Jedi. Didn’t like the polymath kid. Was offended by the alien sidekick (Cripes, even the Ewoks were portrayed with more respect than Jar-Jar’s people and Chewie was a first-rate pilot and engineer). Was actively offended by the portrayal of the only adult female in the film (at least Leia had a backbone). Was confused by the plot, bored by the races and chases (because I didn’t like any of the characters so why would I root for them?). And as confused as I was, I saw the end coming.

After all that, WHY was I supposed to spend another 10 dollars and 3 hours to go see the next one?

I don’t think it’s that hard to understand. Anakin is a slave to Watto, and given his usefulness to Watto and the PG nature of the film, the slavery is not portrayed as a living hell. As for leaving the mom behind, that’s the whole point. The Jedi don’t make much of an effort to rescue the mom because, surprise, they don’t want her to come along and be a part of Anakin’s life. If you would’ve watched the next two films, you would’ve realized how important (and intentional) it was to make a point of the Jedi consciously shunning familial attachment. One of my favorite little character interaction moments from all six films comes in Attack of the Clones when Anakin seeks fatherly comfort from Obi-Wan after having horrible dreams about his mother being in peril. Obi-Wan’s response is to brush away Anakin’s worry by claiming that “dreams pass in time.” Great moment to me, and one that nicely ties in with the Obi-Wan from the classic trilogy. After all, it was Obi-Wan’s character in The Empire Strikes Back that rather coldly suggested that Luke will be a failure to everyone unless he becomes an assassin.

As for the underwater voyage, that takes place before Anakin/Shmi come into the plot. Sounds like you have the timeline of the film mixed up a bit. Perhaps you should’ve watched it again before writing your piece.

“(I’m serious, what were they and aside from the Jedi council who did they answer to? The military?”

The Jedi are a monk-like sect charged with keeping the peace in the Republic. They exist within the ruling bureaucracy of the Republic. I thought this was made fairly obvious in The Phantom Menace. In Episodes II and III the relationship between the Jedi and the military is explored.

“People who got the magic of the prequel don’t like the Eps. 4, 5, and 6, and people like me who got the magic in 4,5 and 6 don’t like the prequels,”

Obviously, I don’t fit in with your generalization. I “got the magic” of the originals. Also, I appreciate the prequels for what they offer, which in some cases I think is a deeper, more interesting and relevant plot than what was offered with A New Hope (a well done fairy tale, but a fairy tale at the end of the day) and Return of the Jedi (what I consider the weakest of all six films if I’m looking through my critical eyeglass).

Ha! You got that right — the benefit is selling oodles of Anakin Podracer video games and related merchandise. The prequels were made to be the biggest merchandising vehicles in movie history.

In a revolutionary approach to Hollywood film-making and merchandising, Lucas had wisely accepted only $175,000 as his writer’s/director’s fee in return for the much more lucrative forty percent of merchandising rights for his Star Wars Corporation. Since then, the first five “Star Wars” films grossed over $3.4 billion worldwide at the box office, compared to $9 billion from merchandise sales.

May the merchandising tie-in be with you!!

The force in the prequel was actually undefined (and even skewed considering the limited perspectives) the prequel offer exactly what Ben and Yoda fear in the originals. They saw what Anakin did to children, they know what a Skywalker can do – even one (in Ben’s case) he would call his best friend. Now, obviously during the production of originals this was not known (by the creators themselves), but I think in the process it gives legitimate reasoning why these two would flat out lie to Luke from the beginning. If there was one debacle that seems almost unforgivable it is the explanation of the force via pseudo-SF mean which kind of ran against the fundamentals that both sets of film shared – having no necessity to explain the magic. The decision to take itself seriously for that one moment really hinders the prequels the most, and they could have removed themselves from that single concept – I feel like the films would have been much better received by existing fans.

That rigid society (jedi)is actually well done for me as it clearly (and one thing about Lucas is that he doesn’t suffer subtlety at all!) sets the opposite of what we see in the originals, and what I began to think of as his goal (or his father): The balance of the force. I’m thinking that because I read a lot of the novels, the concept is (seems) more fleshed out to me. Luke’s victory is not just the destruction of the Sith and not turning to the Dark Side, but is also his disregard to that stoic, non-progressive ways of the Jedi of the Republic. His mission was not to return to the old ways of the Jedi (which via the prequel we know doesn’t work). It was to represent and give birth to a New order (he has a wife, a child etc). He turned his back on the Darkside, AND at every turn didn’t listen to Ben or Yoda (he listened to his emotions and feelings)

That said, there are instances in the first films, that as you get older also boggle the mind (the way – the plan itself – the rescue of Jabba’s palace went down etc).

I think if you came away with “The Jedi are arrogant idiots” – that’s good, because that was exactly the point.

Also, regarding the value of the slaves. Watto was a junk dealer and Anakin’s tech ability is well documented and would seem rather useful. He was also a Podracer, and though he doesn’t win, there must be some benefit in that regard.

The plot of A New Hope is like a piece of Shaker made furniture, it’s simple, it’s got absolutely clean lines, and there’s nothing there that does not have to be. Every single point introduced into the plot is followed up on. No wasted motions, no excesses. The effects and settings are tightly integrated into the story and are at the service of the plot.

In Phantom Menace, Lucas threw in everything but the kitchen sink, starting with the archetypes. Yes, Luke’s the Hero with A Thousand Faces, but Anakin is both Moses (going to set his people free) and Jesus (Virgin birth), and the bad guy’s Hitler (and I’m sorry, I was not at all impressed with the Palpatine storyline. It was Hitler’s legal rise, only simplified and conducted largely off-stage). So, my head’s reeling from all these massive, heavily-contextualized (and really obvious) archetypes, and I’m trying to follow dialogue about trade pacts between places I don’t know, involving people I’ve never met and things I have no reason to care about. I’ve got no setting, I’ve got no context, and pretty soon, I’ve got no interest.

Further, we have this slavery issue, which is sort of tossed in there. Anakin and his mother are supposedly slaves, but they live independently in a nice house, Anakin’s apparently got no work we see, neither does his mother. We never see their master, we never see the planation, or whatever it is they’re enslaved to, and this enslaved kid seems to have the freedom and access to materials to create his own robots and transportation. It made no sense whatsoever. It’s complicating and it’s poorly thought out, and serves only as an excuse for leaving the Mom behind in circumstances that can become distressing later, while, in the meantime, we take a long, strange underwater voyage.

Speaking of context, here’s where the real problem with the prequel sets in. Writing prequels is hard. You’ve got a paradox to work with. You’ve got to use the prequel to set up the “original,” and yet you’ve got to make the prequel make sense in the context of what was created in the original, otherwise your series falls apart, especially these days when movies don’t vanish after the theater release.

Jay hit it. People who got the magic of the prequel don’t like the Eps. 4, 5, and 6, and people like me who got the magic in 4,5 and 6 don’t like the prequels, because the context for the major players was COMPLETELY reversed. If you look hard and do some rationalizing, you can get ulterior motives out of Ben Kenobi and Yoda. BUT in the 3 originals, the Jedi are the Good Guys. They are wise and strong. They are guardian angels and sifus. It is important that Luke be able to control himself not because love itself is seen by the Jedi as a danger, but because any anger gets in the way of using the Force for good.

In the prequels, the Jedi are arrogant idiots with no well defined role within the structure of the Republic (I’m serious, what were they and aside from the Jedi council who did they answer to? The military? The diplomatic corps? The Dorsai? I couldn’t figure it out.) whose rigid philosophy helps do them in. It had me going “What the HELL is this?”

I will respect that for many people, the prequels work in and of themselves, but they knit very, very weakly to the originals and because of that, the series as a series and the Star Wars universe as a whole creation falls apart.