**** Spoilers ****

What is funny is how in this chapter, Cat and eventually Ned think that rejecting the king’s offer is a sign of disloyalty, whereas in the next Bran chapter we learn that Cersei thinks that accepting is suspicious. Makes me wonder if Martin was in a rush to get the plot rolling, and to be honest I always found this chapter really odd, almost hasty. Sorry in advance for any further HTML issues!

AF – definitely like the Luwin/Cate prodding, it fits entirely especially with Ned’s thoughts on Brandon (my Elia/kids example in term of Catelyn was taking the “sinister” track or angle that this chapter confronted me with for the first time). I think Martin successfully debunks any such thoughts if we as readers respect Ned, because he clearly gives Luwin respect when he later tells him to essentially be Catelyn’s right hand and that he trusts him in all things

I do want to be clear: I’m firmly in the Catelyn is doing what I’d do camp. Under no circumstances would you turn this opportunity down. Some aspects about her may pop up here as unlikable (or simply, not optimal), they do not change what “side’ I’d be on, and that would be true even if her sister was not in play.

I must say I’m not understanding the page break issues (I just press “enter”!). If you want use HTML code, there is an html button on the menu bar. Can someone tell me what’s not working for them? Thanks! I’m going to edit and fix others, and sorry for any inconvenience.

Hrmm, I don’t think Cat is ruthless when it comes to games of power.

***SPOILERS***

Compare her to Cersei or Littlefinger later on, she doesn’t have or set people up to be murdered, she doesn’t really care much about Robb’s crown, she just wants her family alive. But marrying off your kids well is normal and not a particular sign of ruthlessness, even Lord Rickard Stark did that. As for not wanting Jon to usurp Robb’s rights, she’s protecting what is due to hers, not taking what belongs to someone else. That’s a pretty clear distinction between her and other game players.

Sorry for not responding directly, I’m having some problems with the comment system!
Hrmm, I don’t think Cat is ruthless when it comes to games of power. ***SPOILERS*** Compare her to Cersei or Littlefinger later on, she doesn’t have or set people up to be murdered, she doesn’t really care much about Robb’s crown, she just wants her family alive. But marrying off your kids well is normal and not a particular sign of ruthlessness, even Lord Rickard Stark did that. As for not wanting Jon to usurp Robb’s rights, she’s protecting what is due to hers, not taking what belongs to someone else. That’s a pretty clear distinction between her and other game players. Sorry for not responding directly, I’m having some problems with the comment system!
AF
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Man, I can’t find the duplicate paragraph. Usually if I do that, what’s happening is my latest save isn’t posting (having a ‘fresher’ autosave–which is annoying and has happened more than once). This was the case here, but I’m not sure if it corrected the issue, as I didn’t see it before I updated to the latest save. If not, double the fun!

Catelyn’s treatment of Jon, although completely devoid of grace, is justifiable when you take it in the context of a survivalist society. Of course she sees him as a threat to her kids. And I have to assume that Jon is the reminder of the one piece of Ned that she has no access to. You don’t need to be a jealous/cruel person to feel that way…

Great post, as always…

She comes to love Ned despite her grievance also because it’s her duty, and when women are sent so far away from their homes they become strangers in strange lands, so if they don’t have good relationships with their husband they will often have no one else for support or company. They’re just very dependent on their husbands’ good will.

I think Cat tries to love Ned and succeeds, and then tries to love Jon for his sake but fails there. Ned is the reason her anger has nowhere productive to go, because he forbids her to talk about it and she has to obey him. And Catelyn doesn’t usually take her anger out on Jon actively, she just avoids him.

I think Martin did a more interesting thing giving us both Cat and Jon as protagonists; Elena suggests it would be easier to be into Cat’s bitterness if we didn’t like Jon, but that’s taking the easy way out.I think Cat blazes angry at Ned because he is taking a dig at her for finding Robert’s offer an honor, which she doesn’t have a problem with. This is where their personalities are different, he shuns ambition wholesale while she is more normal about it — take it when it doesn’t cost anything, but avoid it when the cost is too great.

I don’t think she was insinuating anything about Elia’s children.And I think that because people like Ned, they don’t also realize perhaps that he isn’t a natural at his job, that Cat and Luwin have to prod him for a reason — otherwise he will miss opportunities. He was not raised for lordship, but Cat was always raised for politics.

He misses his home, and so we miss it with him, but if you consider Catelyn’s life, a woman has to give up her home for basically ever and ever because politics demand it. She has a different perspective: while Ned mourns, she doesn’t even have the luxury to do that, so though she feels for him she can’t indulge him.I think it’s understandable that Cat can’t forget about Jon, he’s always there after all. If Ned sent him away and had him raised with bannermen, like most people do, it’d be easy to forget.

I find it more interesting that Ned is insecure about Brandon after all this time, even though nobody really gives him reason to be.