Perhaps. And since we don’t have any Robb viewpoints, we really can’t say one way or the other. But for me, it was very much out of character for him. He knew very well that his marrying a Frey was a critical part of the treaty with them. But I’m certainly willing to admit that it’s possible that the whole Westerling affair occurred “naturally.” I suspect Martin will let us know eventually.

*** SPOILERS ***

I believe that Jeyne’s grandmother (Sybell’s mother) was Maggy the Frog from Cersei’s POV in AFFC. That being said, I don’t think Robb was under the influence of a love potion when he married Jeyne. I think Robb’s actions can be explained by character. Remember Robb is around 16 which is not exactly an age where people are known for their wisdom. He has a clear aptitude for military matters but he’s definitely not sure of himself regarding matters of governance.

It makes perfect sense within the context Westerling motives and Robb’s character for Robb & Jeyne to end up married. The Westerlings have good reason to ingratiate themselves to the people that just forcibly occupied their home and Robb is his father’s son. Honor is clearly an important concept to Robb and I believe that his experiences growing up with Jon and his desire to not sully the honor of Jeyne result in the colossal mistake of breaking his word to Walder Frey.

I don’t think it had anything to do with love potions because it doesn’t need to in order to make sense within the story and GRRM doesn’t seem to use “the magic made me do it” as a plot device. GRRM has stated in interviews that he agrees with William Faulkner’s idea that “the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.” A love potion forcing Robb to marry doesn’t fit with this idea while my above scenario (or something similar) does.

*** END SPOILERS ***

Huh. Replies aren’t going where I would expect them to go, i.e., below the posts to which I’m replying.

Bah.

SPOILERS

I recall reading that someone related to the Westerlings (grandmother, perhaps?) was from the East and that everyone went to her for things like =love potions=. I think there’s better than a 50/50 chance that Robb was affected by one of these things. Which makes sense, because at no point throughout the books did I ever get the impression that Robb would even contemplate doing something so stupid. He knew how important the Frey alliance would be to his cause and certainly didn’t have any Sansa-style illusions that “true love” would win the day.

The Wall was never Ned’s responsibility. It was Robert’s. And the Targaryens’ before him.

Pretty much everyone ignores the Wall because no one thinks there’s a real threat beyond it anymore. The Night’s Watch has been in decline for a very long time, by the look of things.

SPOILERS

Actually, I think Ned is a very good lord. Just look how loyal his men are to him. Just look how prosperous Winterfell is, given its location and geography. What he isn’t is a “politician.”

Ned is fine when he’s in his own lands, with the authority to do things his own way. He treats his men very well, even going so far as to have a different one at his table every night, just to keep his finger on the pulse of his realm. And don’t forget, it wasn’t his men who betrayed him; they seem to have all died fighting to hold the Tower of the Hand and protect his daughters.

What Ned lacks is conflict resolution skills when dealing with people who are his equals or near-equals in power. And that’s nowhere near the same thing as being a bad manager or lord.

Also, I think it is a good point that Ned wasn’t supposed to be Lord of Winterfell and was not given the same training that his brother Brandon was. Ned is the perfect second son forced into the role of first son/lord.

***SPOILERS***

I’d actually argue that Robb did learn from Ned’s supposed tryst. He just learned a lesson that is counterproductive for a lord or king. Remember, Robb grew up with “Ned’s mistake” and they are quite close. Also, Robb sees how that affects Catelyn, Ned, and Jon. I think a large part of Robb marrying Jeyne actually stems from the relationships he witnessed growing up and his desire to live up to Ned’s standards without Ned’s one glaring stain. Of course, if that is the case it is even sadder if Jon’s mother is who many fans think she is because Ned’s stain is actually him placing the welfare of family above his personal honor. That is a lesson that Robb could have used.

**spoilers**

Finding Syrio was probably the best thing Ned every did. EVER!

As far as Rob is concerned, I never really warmed to him. When he brings Jeyne home and Cat does that whole “sigh.. well fuck… well sigh” number I was right there with her. Nothing you can do but watch half your allies storm off in a huff i guess… what an idiot. LEARN FROM YOUR FATHER’S SUPPOSED TRYST ROBB and don’t marry the girl you dishonor!

hehe

I agree, but Ned was never raised to be a lord, you have to bear that in mind. His older brother received the education and training befitting the heir of Winterfell, while Ned was sent to the Vale as a warden of Jon Arryn, who had a very firm moral code and sense of honor (“As High As Honor” are the Arryn words). Jon trained Ned to be a good person, soldier and military general, because that was supposed to be his role once his brother became the lord of Winterfell. Ned was supposed to marry into a smaller house and hold a keem in his brother’s name, lending him his military suppoert when necessary.
If we take his upbringing into consideration, many of the things he has done and will do in the story don’t seem so… frustrating to read.

Hi Hob,

I don’t know, it kind of seems like every king’s court in the history of ever in our world was like that. Stands to reason so would Westeros be…Ned only gets a pass if his parents literally did not educate him about any other part of the world or history than Winterfell, and that seems hard to believe to me. But then again, maybe they were that insular….

SPOILERS!!!

It IS sad! I think Ned would have done better if he’d stopped trying to be Ned, but of course that makes no sense. I give him credit for trying, but, as you say, the North pretty much didn’t need governing, and Robb’s biggest problems were just showing strength and not being a pushover.

I still wanted to kick him for marrying Jeyne Westerling, though. But anyway…

I keep thinking they had the intelligence, they just didn’t have the experience. Going to court would have been a wonderful exercise in learning about all of this, but unfortunately they had to learn under duress, and made too many mistakes. I confess that one of the reasons I’m easier on Ned is because of his finding Syrio for Arya. It’s so typical of him to do something wonderful for his children, and I love him for it! Kind of lame, I know. 😛

Still rereading! Be back with more thoughts!

Oh def have to check out the Petyr essays then!

I tend to agree with you. Yeaaaa, Robb is 15 but he is so skilled on the battlefield that I tend to judge him as a fully formed adult. Clearly that isn’t fair to him. I mean I think you hit the nail right on the head there, Robb and Ned and Robert are good at winning battles. They have no training in rule. Winterfell is barely a place to rule and seeing as the Wall is understaffed and not funded I would say that Ned has shown ample evidence at being pretty crap at “management” even before Robert made him Hand. So sad. To see the failings of such noble characters!

@Elena, yes, Ned should have realized from the beginning that he had no business in this nest of vipers, and frankly he did. I still blame Catelyn’s and Maester Luwin’s insistence. They played on his doubts about who Robert’s become, and that message from Lysa just sent things over the edge. After all that he fell right into the line of thought that he had no choice, and now it’s too late to back out.

Sadly, sometimes Ned and Cat do seem to be on equal footing in the intellect dept. But I more readily forgive Ned because…well, because of the loving things he does, I guess. He’s a wonderful dad, and sometimes watching him in action is just awesome!

@DarthRachel SPOILERS!!!

Varys is DA SHIT!! If he weren’t a eunuch…ahem! Anyway…

I, too, have imagined popping up before Ned and just kicking the crap out of him. Or his wife, really. Littlefinger was the subject of a trio of essays on Tower of the Hand recently, so he’s been on my mind alot more than usual. He manages to lead them all around by their noses, and Eddard’s conclusions are formed almost entirely at Littlefinger’s pace and by his information. It’s really frustrating and I can see why you’d think they probably brought their destruction on themselves, but they’re being played from the get go. Perhaps they should realize, and stop and think before acting, but many a battle was won by Robert by being bold, not exactly smart. In Ned’s case, he truly got wrapped up in Jon Arryn’s death. he should have let that go and concentrated on being Hand. In Cat’s case, she didn’t stop to think what the consequences to her actions would be, and that just makes me want to kick her ass. Robb…well, he’s 15. Other than the live steel to a guest episode, he’s done pretty well as Lord of the North, especially with his bannermen.

Ok, need to reread the chapter and come back for more! 😀

@Elena, the above was for you.

But Robert’s a moron who’s been living there for 15 years. How was Ned supposed to know anything about court? He’s never spent any time there, he doesn’t have any family or friends there (except Robert, and they haven’t been in touch), and he doesn’t have TV or novels. And from everything he knew about the previous regime, the crazy King was obviously the problem; he might have assumed that the advisors were generally more practical types.