that’s a good point about the knight thing. it’s why waymar royce (i know i just misspelled that) was a scouting leader even though he was out wtih at least one man who’d been there for longer than he’d been alive. it goes to the whole idea of what baggage do you as a reader bring with you, and some of mine is that i simply do not see the world in terms of privilege. even when i see it happen in the real world, it seems anomolous and not status quo…this is something i will have to consciously try to remember going forward in the story.

also a good point about old man tarly. he’d much rather have a son who was so moved to defend his country that he took the uber-manly route of freezing his balls off on a 700-feet-high ice cube, rather than disowning him as a drunkard or a cheater or a gay or whatever morally reprehensible state he could have dropped to otherwise. suddenly it does sort of make sense. 🙂

hm…that’s an interesting take on him–“the watch’s version of an admissions office.” although i will take issue with his failing to teach them anything except that life is hard up there. let me go back to my full metal jacket reference of the last wall chapter. the drill sargeant is a complete asshole, and a way of filtering out those who can’t make it, but he’s also teaching them actual skills. ser alliser could be the biggest asshole in the whole wide world–outassholing cersei lannister if he thinks he can–and i have no issue with that if he is also teaching them something. it’s the fact that he’s not that makes him such a tool.

Spoilers—

A lot of my apathy towards Dany’s chapters comes from how little screen time she gets in GoT. Understandably, most of the book is geared towards Westeros so Dany felt irrelevant at the time and the feeling stuck.

And not to argue, but Jon’s in a setting where he can get away with compassion, in a sense. He would function as well as Ned in King’s landing.

@ownersinc

Aww, see I view Jon as the typical fantasy trope but with a twist. As readers we’re trained to expect a lot from him by way of main character stuff, plot acceleration, mysteries solved etc etc, it wouldn’t surprise me in the end if Jon stays a minor character just to circumvent the expectations of the genre.

That being said.. I still like him. He’s compassionate in a story where not many are. And Dany is political in the same way that Ned isn’t. She also doesn’t have a clue what she’s doing but unlike Ned, she learns how to navigate it to her benefit.

@evilclosetmonkey

Agreed. There’s also the idea that if you elevate a minor son of a house you have more pull when it comes to begging the realm for men/supplies. Not that it seems to be working all that well for them but a few “donations” from a house probably go a long way in the Watch.

I actually don’t find Jon or his chapters particularly interesting. My main enjoyment of this series comes from the political plot lines and as such Jon and Dany both come to me as distractions rather than the paragons of the good that people make them out to be. Jon, to me, is the ultimate ASOIAF version of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu/Marty Stu/whatever it’s called.

As for Sam and his dad, I got the impression that the reason Lord Tarly insisted Sam take the black was that it was the only way to both get rid of him and still claim he had chosen an honorable and manly profession.

*** SPOILERS ***

Not sure how much we know about other Night’s Watch members at this point because I lent my copy of AGOT to a friend. So, I’m spoiler tagging this just in case. Just wanted to comment a little further on the titles in the Watch thing. LC Mormont even said that the only reason he let Waymar lead that ranging was because he didn’t want to offend the Royces. I can’t think of a single person in the Night’s Watch that is a knight or son of nobility that hasn’t been elevated to a position of some authority. Partially, I’m sure this is due to the useful training these people received prior to joining the Watch but I think it also shows that while titles and birth count for less than in the rest of Westeros, they still count for something.

Randyll Tarly didn’t let Sam join the Citadel because he didn’t want a Tarly to serve someone else. It had to be the Watch for Sam because that was the only way Lord Tarly’s idea of honor and manliness could remain intact short of Sam having an accident doing something manly, ie hunting.

*** END SPOILER ***

@stile

SPOILERS BELOW

Jon has been down in the crypts, I don’t remember
where in the books it comes up but Arya has a memory about a time when Robb and Jon played a prank on her and Sansa and Bran down there. Robb took the 3 of them down into the crypt and Jon jumped out covered in flour making like a ghost.

SPOILERS BELOW

Also, about R+L=J and the crypt, my personal theory is that Jon will see the statue of Lyanna in the crypt and realize who he really is. Again, the show hasn’t really established this, but Jon dreams about his mother sometimes, and if he realizes that he was dreaming about Lyanna…well, the only image of Lyanna that we’ve seen is in the Winterfell crypt, and why would Jon have ever gone down there? My prediction is that he will discover the truth of his parentage down there. But that’s just me. There’s a long discussion of it over at http://www.towerofthehand.com if you are really interested.