Wow. good to hear that someone IDed with Sansa. I sure as hell didn’t. (an’ I do like skirts, and horses, and swearin’ like a sailor).

feelin’ set up to hate Sansa, more than that she’s hateful, on the look-back. too much ID with Arya… which the author intends…

loved the fantasy book where the girl had traditional “housewifey” magic… and went on adventures (build a boat with your “weave” magic, etc..)

***SPOILERS***

Jay – Because this is a re-read, I have to share a favorite forshadowing line that appears in this chapter. I can’t take credit for pointing this one out, as I read it in a thread on the westeros board. As Jon and Arya are watching the boys fight in the yard, Arya asks why Jon isn’t fighting, and Jon says something about bastards not being allowed to strike young princes. But, with what we know about Joff’s parentage, and what everyone thinks they know about R+L=J… I love how that line fits in the story.
@Elena – Just to add to what most people are saying. As a man, I thoroughly enjoyed my introduction to Arya. She does come off as a typical ‘tomboy’ character at first, but I always feel its best to give an author the benefit of the doubt, and see where they take their character after our first impressions. It’s easy to put a character in a certain category after first meeting them, but eventually all characters become different in some way (in my opinion) and Arya is no different. I find her to be a completely unique character. ***SPOILERS*** Jay – Because this is a re-read, I have to share a favorite forshadowing line that appears in this chapter. I can’t take credit for pointing this one out, as I read it in a thread on the westeros board. As Jon and Arya are watching the boys fight in the yard, Arya asks why Jon isn’t fighting, and Jon says something about bastards not being allowed to strike young princes. But, with what we know about Joff’s parentage, and what everyone thinks they know about R+L=J… I love how that line fits in the story.

Also to reiterate what Jay said somewhere above but I think got lost: please direct any comments you want me to read to me, at the front of your comment, and please note if there are spoilers. I’m trying very hard not to have anything put in my head that wasn’t there before I started reading the book, so I’m kind of skipping comments not addressed to me specifically.

@ Birdie: I do have to agree that there is a dearth of traditionally feminine characters who are portrayed as something besides a dishwater shallow and dishwater interesting character in fantasy. At a guess, much of the challenge is that in taking a character who “conforms” to social expectations in a society that expects “skirts” and everything that goes with them, it becomes very difficult to create a character who actually has an interesting story around her. One story that I have read recently that I felt took a character like that but handled her well was the sharon shinn novella in the “never after” collection. i do look forward to seeing more of Sansa–as I said, she didn’t really do anything to put me off other than being as you say exactly what her parents want, and i can hardly hold THAT against an 11-year-old. 🙂

I think Cersei later admitted that she deliberated kept Robert from being a father to the kids because she feared that close interaction would rouse suspicions from Robert. She did all she could to keep the interactions brief and infrequent.

And Robert is not the kind of guy who’s going to spend a lot of effort getting through Cersei’s wall when there is wine and wenching to be had elsewhere.

Also to reiterate what Jay said somewhere above but I think got lost: please direct any comments you want me to read to me, at the front of your comment, and please note if there are spoilers. I’m trying very hard not to have anything put in my head that wasn’t there before I started reading the book, so I’m kind of skipping comments not addressed to me specifically.

@ Birdie: I do have to agree that there is a dearth of traditionally feminine characters who are portrayed as something besides a dishwater shallow and dishwater interesting character in fantasy. At a guess, much of the challenge is that in taking a character who “conforms” to social expectations in a society that expects “skirts” and everything that goes with them, it becomes very difficult to create a character who actually has an interesting story around her. One story that I have read recently that I felt took a character like that but handled her well was the sharon shinn novella in the “never after” collection. i do look forward to seeing more of Sansa–as I said, she didn’t really do anything to put me off other than being as you say exactly what her parents want, and i can hardly hold THAT against an 11-year-old.

On the subject of gender and ‘traditional’ roles for men and women (boys & girls) in this book, I actually find the series quite refreshing because it seems to take the issue on directly without recourse to some of the more clichéd narratives of male power vs. female power that seem to infest fantasy literature (such as the male = warrior, female = spell user split), and it doesn’t sugar coat the difficulties. I would consider myself as much a feminist as the next guy, if not more, but I remember when I read C. J. Cherryh’s “The Paladin” as a young teen, and while it was not a great book in any case, I remember being frustrated by the stark differences that separated the female student from the male teacher–it seemed like the book was harping on the differences instead of emphasizing the equalities.

Looking back, I sort of see that as an attempt at really making something that is ‘true’ to certain facts of life, and, though I have not gone back to check the book, I suspect that Cherryh was remaining quite true to a certain kind of female empowerment without demanding that the world be much different from ours. It was not a lesson that my younger self could handle properly, and perhaps Cherryh’s book didn’t explain the issue well enough. Martin, on the other hand, seems to be walking a fine line very wonderfully here, suggesting that certain differences cannot be overcome but that others are largely irrelevant–depending on the character. I would love to hear your thoughts on this further, Elena, as you get a little deeper into the series and bump up against more of this issue.

(some spoilers may follow, depending on how you define the term)

Jay–

Your question is really tricky, and I think a lot of the other posters here have covered the best options. I suspect that Ned would want to emphasize bonds between houses that he felt were important and had a connection with, and so if he were planning to marry Sansa to anyone, Robert’s kids would be a great choice. His native caution would lead me to believe that he would not broach the subject regarding Joffrey, but perhaps a later marriage with Tommen would be something he would consider as ‘possible.’ Other good possibilities include Renly or little Robert Arryn, though I don’t know/remember what the rules for cousin-marriage are in Martin’s world. I suspect it wouldn’t be a problem.

We know so little of the Reeds that while I suspect Howland’s kids might be a good match, but something makes me think Ned was hoping that perhaps Arya might find a home she enjoyed there much more than Sansa. If time had permitted (of course that is the way of all things in Martin’s books) I wonder if Arya and Bran might have gone to visit the Reeds to see if they enjoyed life there.

Lastly, while it would probably be a great idea to try building alliances further south, I just don’t think that Ned would be looking to Dorne for a match, nor do I feel he would consider the Iron Islands. He is an eminently practical man, our Ned, but he is also a sentimental one, and sending his eldest daughter to a place where he could no longer protect her effectively (nor call on local allies to protect her) seems like something he would not be interested in–nor does it seem like he would choose a match that would make Sansa unhappy, unless protocol or other circumstances demanded. After all, while keeping the children alive has to be his primary concern after his experiences during the rebellion, that feeling transfers into other kinds of emotional attachments and desires for his children–after all, look at what he did for them in the south.

Once again I am impressed by the work that is going on here, and I really enjoy getting the chance to read these–it’s the first site I check on Google Reader, so you must be doing it right!

AYH, that was the line I was remembering “tossing”, I just assumed it was about Edric–thanks! The Robert as a father thing bugs me, I seem to recall there was a reason why he had little to with Joff and Tommen, but it strikes me as non-Robert to not cherish his healthy male hit heirs (he touches on this a bit later). I understand Varys taking care of the bastards, as that’s just expedient to do considering Cersei.

Birdie, I think I’m more on your level when considering the two Stark girls. I always thought Sansa got a bad wrap for being almost EXACTLY what her lord father and mother wanted.I guess that after we meet a Margaery Tyrell we can see where she (Sansa) lacked a dimension needed in court, but in terms of what was being taught her, she seemed a quick study and to excel. I enjoy both Stark sisters quite a bit though, it is true that Sansa got hit with the same stupid stick that inflicts much of her family!

Minor spoilers for AFFC, but not really:

I also wanted to add that the scene with all of kids playing (in the yard fighting) was reminding me of Doran at the Water Gardens, in terms of this idea of innocence, where they all came from, and where everyone would have to go.

One of the reasons I *didn’t* immediately love Arya was because of her gender characterization. I basically said “Oh look, here’s another tomboy, who seems to hate everything about being a girl, and she’s being shoved down my throat to make me feel guilty that I like to wear skirts!” I was the ‘princess’ type girl growing up (full of dress-up, rules, and hating sandboxes/dirt), and I felt like those characters didn’t get a honest perspective in fantasy. I only really saw was the Tomboy, the Airhead, and the Seductress.

Sansa steps away from the norm in this novel, just as Arya does though. They both grow into different people, and I still adore them both. Arya grew on me when I stopped trying to think of her as a girl, and Sansa solidified my love by her courtesy and inexhaustible courage.

My immediate thought wasn’t Edric Storm, but rather Robert Baratheon’s first by-blow, Mya Stone. At the Vale of Arryn, Mya relates to Sansa her early memories of her father–basically a large man who would toss her in the air and always catch her, and how Mya equated this to the feeling of being completely safe. This is then contrasted with the betrayal she clearly felt when her beloved Mychal, a noble, did not marry her.

And interesting you would throw in a Robotech mention. My wife always equates Sansa with Minmei. Oy…

Possible Matches for Sansa other than Joffrey: Robert Arryn, Tristan Martel, possibly even Renly. Although based on age and the background of their fathers, I think Sansa/Joffrey must have been considered a likely match by everyone, including Ned and Cat. Just that in cases such as this you wait for the king to broach the subject lest you come across as presumptuous.

I will be curious to find out if Elena can finish the next chapter and stop without immediately flipping the page to start the next chapter if just to find out the fate of Bran.

Regarding the marriage options, ironically I think that both Jon Arryn and the Tyrell boys would have been options, though Sweetrobin is cousin to the Stark girls. Probably Sansa-Tyrell and Arya-Jon Arryn, due to age. Also Sansa would fit much better in Highgarden. Theon is possible as well, but would Ned have sent one of his daughters away to the Iron Islands? Jojen Reed would have been an option, but I have a feeling that the Reeds couldn’t care less about political marriages.

And if it’s your complete inability to recognize ANY archetype…then I get to blame this just on being an English major. 🙂

Carrie,

It always interested me because as we know she’s about that age and it had to be something that at least crossed their minds. Potentially, she’s a pretty substantial chip. Since she’s obviously worthy of wedding the heir, her options are near unlimited. I know it’s difficult to foresee what would have occurred if the King didn’t visit Winterfell, but I’ve always been interested in who the Starks (who seem out of touch and – at least Ned – not quick to trust the South) would have married her off to. I think we have to assume that a non-first son of a well to do house would be a disappointment. I think we could rule out Tommen, because I just don’t see Ned dealing with the Lannisters if not for Robert’s direct request/presence (though it would have probably been shrewd). The Tyrells have 3 sons – on the surface – that would seem to be winners. Perhaps a Quentyn Martell would be on their radar at the least? Part of me thinks Ned would keep her close with Catelyn and Sansa perhaps battling him every step of the way. Anyone else think that? Would Renly be on the table?

I do want to add the request for people to please be mindful of labeling spoilers for our readers and Elena.

Like I said, I’m not couching this in terms of gender studies shit, though I know it might sound that way just from the fact that i brought it up. What it actually made me think of was like, childhood adventure books. Where, typically, at least from what was still going on when I was a kid, were books with mostly boy characters for boys and books with female lead characters (sometimes only girl characters), for girls. (Not that kids couldn’t and didn’t read both, but…there was certainly very little “needs to be gender neutral” bitching going on in like 1989.) The females in adventure stories are almost always NOT the traditional “feminine” role…i mean, pretty princesses are almost by definition of what they are incapable of going adventuring. So Arya felt like an archetypal character to me of the girl who rejects the feminine constraints of her society. And I was wondering if she felt like that (archetypal) to male readers, or not. nothing to do with casting aspersions for the use/not use of the gender roles or anything like that. simply it stuck out to me as something that made me wonder, “Huh, HAVE i seen this from male writers a lot or not?” And yes i know it creates an artificial lens to even wonder that sort of thing, when really it doesn’t (and shouldn’t) make a difference to reading experience, but…it’s an issue i notice. Don’t think this is the place to go into the politics of why, but suffice to say that for me its the politically INcorrect police rather than the reverse.

Wow, that’s a harder question than it sounds on the surface. My first thought was Jojen Reed, simply for the lulz. 😉 And then Theon, which made me feel almost worse than the thought of Joffrey. Maybe he’d pull a Queen of Thorns and broach the idea of Willas Tyrell? There would have been the possibility of Tommen as well, as the heir to Casterly Rock (legitimately through Cersei, since Jamie and Tyrion are childless (or at least as far as the world knows!))

I don’t think she would have been proposed to any of the Northern houses, the Starks already command fierce loyalty there. Arya though, she would have been well suited as, say, an Umber. 🙂

***tiny hinty spoilers***

the whole “A wolf with a fish in its mouth” was to me just a joke

Or maybe it was foreshadowing. 😉

***end tiny hinty spoilers***

As I noted I would above, I just want to post my answer to the question Elena asked readers below so she can read it (again she doesn’t read my bits for obvious reasons):

I may be obtuse and part of the problem, but I seem to read with no active social conscious. I feel like I’m a reasonably perceptive reader, but I go into reads void of angst (deserved or otherwise) or angles probably because I’m somebody who could be described as a rather carefree in general. I once considered Erikson’s Malazan (which BTW I’m also re-reading) series and how so many of the heavyweight characters are darker skinned or women and then wondered if my reaction spoke to the ultimate success or ultimate failure of the novel. Then I thought about it a second time, and remember that I didn’t much care so I never considered it again. Whether you’re Gene Wolfe or Terry Brooks, I don’t much care what or what not your putting on the table as long as it kicks ass. The last thing I want to do is get in my own way and actively try to find ways of not liking shit that I already like. Among the first SF/F books I read was Chapterhouse: Dune (and yes, I liked it), a book that on the surface is one female ass kicking organization trying to survive the invasion of another group of female ass kickers, both using the shit out of men who couldn’t catch a break even when they died, because these ladies would just clone your ass and proceed to fuck you all over again. The other group? Pet sex toys via sexual imprinting (okay, bad example, sign me up for that with the ambrosia meal plan). I didn’t miss a single beat when I was a kid picking up my third Shannara novel and it was Brin Omshford holding it down with Allannon and really continuing the legacy of my familiar guide. The only time in the last several years that I can recall being irritated was reading Robin Hobb’s (who I dig) Soldier Son trilogy, a series that I think I liked more than most to begin with, but by book two or three I was like, “fuck, are we still talking about trees?” I guess I didn’t feel anything revolutionary was going on with Arya, but I don’t think she’s presented as such, and any character that is, isn’t.

If the next chapter is the chapter I’m assuming it is, I can’t wait for the write-up.