Regarding the KG, I was only saying that I’m not entirely sold on all of them doing what we think they did (an extreme), as I’m not quite sure how the Arthur Dayne/Ashara/Ned possible connection could have allowed. I’m vague because there’s little evidence that there even was much of a previous Ashara Dayne connection (that I know of).

I think the plan is sound but it’s too complicated and I think that’s what makes Doran a character that splits fandom regarding just how good of a player he is. Too much could happen (not the least of which, Joff turning out to be a a GREAT king –we just didn’t know at that time, indeed we didn’t know that Robert wouldn’t be). If Joff wasn’t a complete failure, a Lannister/Stark/Baratheon union would be almost insurmountable.when considering such a union most likely brings with them the River Lords through marriage.

I’ve been looking for the very small Tyrell/Dorne passage, let me continue to do so.

First of all, sorry for taking so long – college, you know.
Regarding Dany’s blame – you’re right, it was directed to Paul. The next two paragraphs were directed to you, and I got mixed up.
Regarding Dorne – I think we basically agree about its’ole, and as you said, you simply need some stuff clarified.
I’m looking at this plan from a historical (real-world England, as GRRM is greatly influenced by that) and long-term perspective. We already know Doran is a long-term player – his Targaryen plan started at least some 10-15 years ago, with Arianne’s betrothal. And he managed to wait that long, seemingly doing nothing. I think his original plan would take another 10-20 years, and here’s how it would go:
Jon Arryn doesn’t die, and keeps the kingdom barely together. Robert keeps with his spending and partying, eventually dying in 5-15 years from too much of it, remaining all the while an abysmal king, with only John as Hand keeping the kingdom from complete ruin. Joffrey ascends the throne. By now, Jon is either dead or old, and retires to the Vale, either forced or from choice. Joffrey and Cersei, starved for power, bungle up everything the way they did in the books, increasing resentment and anger towards the Throne and Lannisters. Even if Tywin reins them in, nobody’s happy with the complete control the Lannisters have of the Kingdoms – not Stark (who never liked Lannister), Baratheon (Renly/Stannis) (who didn’t get their power), Tyrell and possibly Arryn (if Jon/Sweetrobin are even a player). After 5-10 years at most of Joffrey’s excess, bungling and verge of collapse, the nobles tire of 20 years or more of shit, especially if the Long Summer is over and once they realize that Baratheon/Lannister were basically their equals, so why should they rule? So a group of high-ranking nobles with a Magna-Carta mindset come to John (Joffrey), and demand he sign it. He refuses, or does it and then declares it invalid. The nobles rebel, and Wales (Dorne) takes the chance to reassert its’ independence. At this point, the nobles need to find someone to rule them if they win, plus possible outside support to defeat the Throne’s supporters. Since they obviously can’t agree on who should do it, they invite (or are handed) Louis of France (Targaryen) who is related to the Throne in some way, and above them all in rank, so is readily agreed upon. At least, that’s how I see it.
I have a question for you, though: You wrote “I’ve loved some of the info that may lead us to believe that Dorne may in fact not be on quite as bad terms with the Reach as some may think.” Where did you see that? We know Oberyn claimed to be on good terms with Willas, but anything else?
Lastly, I completely didn’t understand your last paragraph regarding the KG. “I think they were exactly what they thought they were and I’m not altogether sure that it wasn’t idiotic (as being completely anything “white or “black”) would be” – Honorable? In some sense, sure, but what about my questions? Are you saying they weren’t Black and White? Because that’s how they always seemed to me. “I think whatever they do would be reacted upon as an extreme (either like or dislike), but I also see the possibility that at least one of them may have done something slightly different” – Are you saying that they would only have reacted to an extreme situation, or that their reaction would be considered extreme? And what would they have done differently that would have solved the problem? Killed Rossart, knocked Aerys out, and then gone to kill the Pyromancers, so Aerys would be killed by the Lannisters? Killed Rossart, knocked Aerys out and defended him until death or (possibly more likely) capture or loss of conscious? Only the first would have solved the problem for the others (not Jaime, that is) ,and they still wouldn’t have done their duty in defending the king. The second might work, but only for Jaime, because his father’s banner-men would make a point of not killing him. But then he’d still be at fault, because he allowed his king to be killed and didn’t fight until near-death or death. In fact, it would seem he colluded with his father’s men to defeat Aerys, so he’d be more at fault. Explanations?

SPOILERS

I don’t think you directed your first comment to the right person because I don’ think I ever said anything about who Dany should blame, that was Paul.

About Dorne, in the context of going to war and actively taking part in a battle to assume the Throne, Doran’s argument sure made it out that way.I didn’t say they sucked or weren’t potent or a threat to anyone, merely expressed Doran’s own thoughts that they have to be especially careful. I think the natural defense geography lends them also hinders (even if they wanted such) their ability to strike, as they are also able to be pretty much be contained if needed (if one supposed that historical house beefs exist). Politically, sure Dorne is often placated (in a way that say the Iron Islands are not) but I think barring a major High Garden and Dorne union, they are definitely not a house that anyone is overly concerned with, and maybe it is because Doran is that clever, but even he admits he’s falsely bloated the number of his forces to maintain a how of (more strength).

Don’t get me wrong, I view Dorne as completely competent and somebody you absolutely fear committing (seriously) to a larger house, but not one you are worried about alone in matters of the Throne. I think it’s why you constantly see everyone acknowledging them (even since Aegon) and give them their respect, but I think if you’re fighting the war, you’re probably more concerned if the Vale commits to the field than the likelihood that Dorne would. I suggest that this is perhaps laudably practical of Doran and one’s more extreme view (in either direction) depends on what you think of Doran (some years ago I know it was a semi-heated debate on whether or not if he was calculating, patient genius or a do-nothing old man who plots vengeance and only outlasted his enemies because other men killed them while he sat out). I think he’s probably somewhere in the middle, but make no mistake, he sat out for decades because Dorne couldn’t do anything–and yes, a degree of your “power” is who you can call on as your allies or at least who wouldn’t smite you as soon as you tried to ever deploy offensively. That said, I’ve loved some of the info that may lead us to believe that Dorne may in fact not be on quite as bad terms with the Reach as some may think. You mention guerilla warfare, and while one can easily point to numerous examples of its effectiveness in our own history it’s often used by the side that’s deemed militarily “weaker”. For example, at the end of the day several countries can use such tactics to great success, but I’d rather be the U.S. if it’s all or nothing.

The acquisition on an heir is interesting because it would restore what would have happened in nicely symmetrical way, but depending on our timeline I have serious doubts that the Lannisters would ever give up the throne or power just about as much as I don’t think in any of Dorne’s plans would they be allowed to maintain power of any kind. In this hypothetical event, has the Baratheon/Lannister to Stark arrangement taken place? No way Ned Stark abandons the cause of his friend, his children and how own children and a lot of houses would have stakes (Tullys, the other Stormlords etc). Obviously such a plan was thought of well before that union, but you’re still talking about asking Robert (who hates Targaryens and is the King when all of this was planned) to withdraw from a throne that is backed by House Lannister. Not seeing that no matter what Jon Arryn or Ned want and I don’t think either would side with Dorne against Robert (being the honor bound people you mention). Please clarify the scenario so I can better grasp this, as it’s kind of interesting.

Regarding the KG, and completely not talking about the martial abilities, I think they were exactly what they thought they were and I’m not altogether sure that it wasn’t idiotic (as being completely anything “white or “black”) would be. I think whatever they do would be reacted upon as an extreme (either like or dislike), but I also see the possibility that at least one of them may have done something slightly different I expressed my opinion on Jaime and his choice above.

@Jay: Dany blaming Robert and Eddard rather than her father? Perhaps. But they certainly are guilty. And while the ultimate balme lies with Aerys, you have to tkae into consideration she’s been fed propaganda and lied to her whole life. Even the oh-so-honorable Barristan the Bold (more on him below) doesn’t tell her the truth. “Your father was a difficult man, with issues… anecdote about wise great-grandfather of Dany’s saying Targaryens are a toss-up between madness and greatness. ” No. Her father was completely insane and corrupt. Rob and Ned did a public service by calling that to attention (though their way of dealing with the problem was hardly any better), and Jaime did the greatest deed ever when he did what no other had the guts to do – execute (yes, execute, even if he himself calls it a slaughter!) a madman who was king.

Dorne is the weakest kingdom? Maybe on offense, although even then I’m unsure. But as a rallying, a fortress,a place to gather your supporters and for defense – The best in the Seven Kingdoms. This is the unconquerable. The one the Targaryens with their dragons couldn’t conquer. The one that caused the loss of 10,000 men in taking it, and 50,000 trying to hold it, when I doubt all of the warriors in Dorne from 14-55 were more than 30,000 (conjencture – if Daeron exaggerated the number of enemies he fought, wouldn’t that mean he outnumbered them at least by a full number [2-to-1 at the least]?). The one conquered only when attacked both from land and sea (and how many ships did Robert have?). I see Dorne as Wales to the 7 Kingdom’s England (which GRRM himself said), with Doran as Owain Gwynedd, Llewellyn Fawr, or any other powerful ruler defeating the English in guerrila warfare and terrain/climate advantages.
Because of this, I tend to think Doran knew what he was doing. He probably knew about Viserys and his problems, which was another reason not to let Arianne go, even after her mother left him (Doran told Arianne that her mother threatened to take her life if he took another child of hers from her, but how long has she been away? Certainly long enough for Arianne to go to the Free Cities, perhaps on a ‘tour’ with her uncle and cousins, to see his old stomping grounds). As I see it, he probably meant to get an heir, dispose of Viserys, and raise a normal Targaryen. In fact, I can see this plan getting much more support from other noble families. He’s another generation away from madness, raised by the Lords of the 7 Kingdoms, controlled by them, probably a regency council. Jon Arryn might agree for honor. So would Eddard. The Lannisters would still have powers as regents, especially if they have two votes on the council (Tywin as Lord of the West, and Joffrey as the Baratheon heir). Viserys probably didn’t know, because Doran wouldn’t want him to. Doran may have worked with Darry and Illyrio at the same time (which assumes that Darry could see Aerys’s traits in young Viserys, but explains how Illyrio knows to take in the Targaryens).
Or he could know of Aegon. But I see no reason to debate a theory if you don’t have any proof of its’ possibility, and since both proofs for and against Aegon surviving are circumstantial, rely on omittance and are generally weak, I refuse to do so.

Moving on, I was kind of annoyed by the comment about the Kingsguard. It may seem a minor matter, but it really annoys me. They may have been the best Kingsguard ever, but for some reason I think I liked Criston Cole (the Kingmaker from the Dance of the Dragons) better as a person, assuming he wasn’t a jilted loved but truly believed what he was doing was good. The fact that you became a Kingsguard doesn’t absolve you of your knightly oaths or your duties as a person. Jaime put it perfectly – on one hand, his oath tells him to protect the king at all costs,aon the other hand, he has to defend the innocent, weak etc. What kind of idiot closes his eyes to this dilemma? I remeber a conversation between Jaime and one of the Kingsguard about Aerys basically raping and assaulting his wife one night, while they heard: “Aren’t we sworn to protect her?” “Yes, but not from him.”
WTF???!!! From who, then? Spilled wine? Vermin? Would be-assassins who think killing the queen is so helpful?
It seems to be that the Kingsguard likes to think that the moment they don their white cloaks, they become those white cloaks. All of them except Jaime forgot they were first human-beings, second knights, and only thirdly Kingsguards. While the KG at the Tower of Joy didn’t know the truth, from their amount of carign until now, I don’t think they’d have doen what Jaime did. Maybe argued, maybe even *gasp of horror* disobeyed the king and killed Rossart! But they wouldn’t have done enough to prevent all of it – killing Aerys, and later all the other Pyromancers. And this just tells me how hypocritical, spineless, lily-livered, weak, worthless and pathetic – or rather apathetic – they are.
I thend to hink my rant about those idiots called ‘the greatest kinghts in the Seven Kingdoms’ (insert many deragtory and sarcastic remarks here) is over. Any thoughts, both on Dorne and the KG?

Ah…that makes a lot of sense. although, even if he wants a Worthy Queen (i feel like that always needs to be said with capitals, lol), surely his ambitions as the greatest dothraki lord in generations have some form to them? but that reasoning definitely makes sense to me, and thanks for sharing! gives me something to think about AND makes me feel like i’m not totally left out of all the discusions. 🙂

Regarding “found myself wondering what, exactly, Drogo is after with this alliance.”

I won’t spoil anything by saying this. I’ll let the future chapters tell/show what Drogo will get out of this alliance, but I truly believe that (in addition to any other dream) one of his prime motivators was: “A Worthy Queen”.

Drogo sees himself as a king. Perhaps the greatest Dothraki Horse Lord in many a generation. And every great King deserves a Queen to match. I’m sure that he considered all the eligible Dothraki women and found none suitable to his greatness. Likewise, he disregarded any women taken as prize of conquest, as they are merely chattel to his people.

But Dany is from a royal house. She’s gorgeous, young, fit and fertile, which are all requirements for a trophy wife. But more importantly, she’s the daughter of Kings. Her line is of that of the Dragon Kings and Queens extending back for centuries to Old Valyria.

Bloodlines are a powerful thing when breeding a great horse, but also when starting a dynasty. She’s of the right stock. And therefore likely to produce a powerful heir. A mate like no other Dothraki can boast.

Drogo paid a Queen’s ransom for her, and guaranteed himself a Queen like no other Dothraki chieftain. The fact that Dany displayed spirit when riding silver, just validated his decision.

Like Tony Montana said in Scarface: “With the right woman, there is no stopping me. I could go right to the top.” 😀

hi Duckchick1! glad you enjoyed it, as always! Well, I had a negative reaction to Viserys in the first chapter but, absolutely, this one sealed the deal.

I am curious to know what the actual discussions were between Viserys/Illyrio and Drogo. as in, would viserys actually have let his ambition overcome his pride by selling his sister for an army when she would be relegated to concubine/whore vs treated with the respect (of position in the tribe) due someone who’s blood of the dragon? or was the marriage (ie, acknowledgment of the family’s importance) a necessary component?

i think the gift I’m most intrigued by (morbidly enough) is the dress made of a thousand mouse skins. that’s…i don’t know why, but that’s kind of awesome. i bet it’s hella soft. and it’s a mouseskin dress. WTF. please let them put that in the hbo series, lol

Woot! You said a mouthful here!! 😀 I can honestly say that, from this chapter on, I had not an inkling of care for the hole the idiot was digging for himself!

“found myself wondering what, exactly, Drogo is after with this alliance.”

Now there’s an interesting question! I think up until now I’d assumed he bought Dany so he could show off an exotic bride. She’s young and extremely beautiful, but other than that you’re now making me wonder why he married her. Visarys could have sold her as his slave and gotten an army, Drogo didn’t have to marry her. I doubt the Targaryen name carried any weight with the Dorthraki, so what gives? And because he married her, she became a queen. Those wedding gifts! Makes me want to find the nearest warlord…

In any case, now I’m very curious!! Great post, as usual! 😀

DP – thanks for mentioning martin’s admitted cultural jumping-off points. although i think i prefer to keep picturing the dothraki as men with indian (india indian) women’s hair…long thick and amazing. i hesitated to discuss my own obsession with hair care practices by pointing out that i loved the men sitting around oiling their hair…using coconut oil to help prevent breakage (ie to increase length) has been something indian women have apparently been doing for, like, ever. and when the dothraki were first described it crossed my mind to wonder if martin would mention anything about how they achieved those long flowing manes. lol.

obviously the only maester i’ve thus far met is luwin, so i don’t have a good grasp yet of what they know/don’t know. but i’m going to point out that by “we” you must mean “western” culture, as not everywhere on earth was as mired in myth and ignorance during that period….

@ Elfy – well, he is. what can i say? i call it like i see it.

While it seems impossible that he wasn’t afforded the time if he wanted to talk, perhaps Rhaegar was never given the chance and crazy ass Robert just attacked him when he saw the standard. Otherwise it’s very hard for me to envision two such important people of their causes going toe to toe in a reasonable large scale battle.

*END SPOILERS*

SPOILERS

I get the honor issue (though the doublestandard is odd–just about whoever killed Aerys would be betraying their King) due to the cloak, but one thing I always felt about that scene and Jaime in general is that Jaime is the ULTIMATE follower of Ned’s “Kill who you judge” stance. Plus, Jaime was what? 17? Ned should have had some idea of what a young man must have been thinking, as Jaime was in a unique situation and not one I find myself disagreeing with his decision.

END SPOILERS

SPOILERS!!!! @Jay

I have to agree! I have never understood why Rhaegar seemed to screw this whole thing up so much. It’s like EVERYONE was cursed to make a wrong decision, and then we get Robert on the throne; the BEST of the Baratheons. I’m sorry, but that’s not a compliment.

As you say, Jay, The Crown Prince could have settled this, although there might have still been some ugliness if Robert chose to duel Rhaegar over Lyanna. And I’m sure he would have! In fact, acting sooner to take down his nutty father would have been even better. He says he meant to before, but things got in the way…

So, how long has this thing with Lyanna been going on, anyway? Is it possible she was knocked up BEFORE the Tower of Joy?

In any case, I guess we wouldn’t have a story otherwise. or it would be so wildly different. Still, I can’t help but second guess all the characters in my favorite books! 😛

No disagreeing with a lot of the above!

SPOILERS

Brandon is just another example of a Stark fucking something up! A part of me wonders why Rhaegar did not reach out to Jon Arryn (who to me seems like he would have the pull in this Big 3 Rebellion). Robert’s rage is certainly known, but no way Arryn allows it to continue a war IMHO. If Rhaegar secretly would have lifted the death orders on Ned and Robert (and I think he had that power) and moved to remove/retire his father, this is a done deal. It seems so easy to speak to Arryn and present Lyanna. Robert’s anger is one of the completely baffling mysteries to me. I just don’t get it.

END SPOILERS

POILERS!!!! @Jay

I have to agree! I have never understood why Rhaegar seemed to screw this whole thing up so much. It’s like EVERYONE was cursed to make a wrong decision, and then we get Robert on the throne; the BEST of the Baratheons. I’m sorry, but that’s not a compliment.

As you say, Jay, The Crown Prince could have settled this, although there might have still been some ugliness if Robert chose to duel Rhaegar over Lyanna. And I’m sure he would have! In fact, acting sooner to take down his nutty father would have been even better. He says he meant to before, but things got in the way…

So, how long has this thing with Lyanna been going on, anyway? Is it possible she was knocked up BEFORE the Tower of Joy?

In any case, I guess we wouldn’t have a story otherwise. or it would be so wildly different. Still, I can’t help but second guess all the characters in my favorite books! 😛

As to the level of paleontology and zoology in Westeros, well, the Maesters are surprisingly advanced in terms of their studies of the sciences. I don’t think they’ve quite invented the scientific method, yet, but they may be on their way. They certainly hew towards logic, reason and careful observation in their studies, and the direction they are taking things I think might be towards a time of science over magic and myth, which they seem to disdain. They know enough to know that dragon bone is black because of its high iron content, and Maester Luwin is very impressed with the lens Catelyn receives from Lyanna and remarks how useful it will be for his observatory! So, I think science-wise, they are farther along than we were on Earth during the Medieval period.

SPOILERS

Unless I’m reading you wrong, I’m pretty sure you’re timeline is inaccurate. Aerys was dead when Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy. Remember the Sack of King’s Landing occurred THEN Ned lifted the siege at Storm’s End THEN he went to the Tower of Joy. Remember that Stannis was saved by Ned’s forces at Storm’s End and was given the fleet to break Dragonstone (at this time Aerys was well dead and all of this occurred prior to Ned going to TOJ

Also, I stated above (which you repeated) that Rhaegar’s children supercedes his younger siblings in the line of succession (barring a bastard).

Second, we don’t know that Aerys himself didn’t send the KG south with his blessing though it seems clear that Rhaegar was either summoned back or returned on his accord and I think he almost certainly has the authority to order the Kingsguard, excluding it goes against the direct orders of the King (who was very aware where Lewyn and Jaime were). We also know that Rhaeger planned to “clarify” some issues upon returning from the Trident. What that means we don’t know, but it didn’t sound like someone who lacked in authority. We are constantly made aware of the Crown Prince’s popularity and competence–he just ran into a pissed off damn demon on the wrong day (and got his shots in)!

*END SPOILERS*

I guess the only thing I can assume is that Rhaegar’s heir (who would come before Viserys in the succession, by the way) is there, whether that be Jon (and R married L) or little Aegon (and the one that dies in the sack is a false child?). I have major problems with both possibilities, since no one knew Jon would be a boy. If it was baby Aegon, then where is he now, and who died in his place with his mother?

You could make a case saying they abandoned Aerys for a more sane royal family member, but they have no real way of knowing that Jon or Aegon won’t be just as mad as Aerys! Also, even as crown prince, Rhaegar wouldn’t have the authority to order so many Kingsguard to protect his own unborn/baby son. The entire situation baffles me.

SPOILERS

I get the honor issue (though the doublestandard is odd–just about whoever killed Aerys would be betraying their King) due to the cloak, but one thing I always felt about that scene and Jaime in general is that Jaime is the ULTIMATE follower of Ned’s “Kill who you judge” stance. Plus, Jaime was what? 17? Ned should have had some idea of what a young man must have been thinking, as Jaime was in a unique situation and not one I find myself disagreeing with his decision.

END SPOILERS

SPOILERS!! JAY!! (U know I love ya, right? 😛 )

LOL! Of course he’s an ass, it’s his honor. How DARE this upstart boy sit in the throne! The Iron Throne of Kings!! THE NERVE!!! This is the same honor that makes him argue bluntly with Robert when Elia and her children were killed, and even more so when Robert set assassins on Dany. Ned’s honor was rigid, and a double edged sword that eventually sliced him in half, but it made him the man he was.

You could say it made him AND broke him!