It was only when I re-read that excerpt about Lyanna’s death that it dawned on me that maybe Jon Snow isn’t Ned’s bastard, but the offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Blew my mind.  Haven’t re-read the series, but when I get to it eventually this’ll put a whole new twist on it

Ned. Closet. Skeletons. Jon’s next up!

Jay — you mention Jon — like Elena I am reading these books for the first time — I took it he did not want to have a repeat of the Targaryen family as they were smuggled out of the palace.

I gotta jump to Robert’s defense here. BIG SPOILERS

Three things we know about Rhaegar:
1. He named Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty in the presence of her fiance and his own wife. His own, probably pregnant with Aegon, wife.

So, smart, kind and talented, quite ballsy but not to high on honor. Like, Robert is more diplomatic then Rhaegar, I would say.

2. By Sandor’s testimony, it was Rhaegar Targaryan that knighted Gregor. He knighted Gregor. I’m sure he’d regret it if he lived to see him rape and kill his wife and kids shortly afterward but still. He knighted Gregor. Seriously.

3. Let’s say Lyanna did die in Ned’s arms short after delivering Jon. Hence the blood on her bed. Many people believe this.

The seige on Storm’s End alone, lasted roughly a year. This is stated several times. This started sometime after Brandon and Richard got burned alive, Aerys demanded Robert and Ned’s head, Jon raised the banner of rebellion against him, Ned and Robert went to gather their troops, Robert waged some war in the Stormlands then left to join with Ned’s troops. It ended when Ned started south after the Sacking of King’s Landing. That alone lasted a year. We can say safely that if Jon is their son, he’d have to be conceived after Brandon and Richard Stark got burned alive along with a dozen others for trying to save her. Either Rhaegar decided to leave out what exactly was happening, raped her after all or I dunno. There is probably something we dunno but until we do, Robert by all appearances seems to be in the right about Rhaegar. We was kind of a douche.

Rob and Ly would have been a good couple. fights aplenty, but there was actual love there, at least on Rob’s side. And lord does that help!

SPOILERS!!!!

i only found the series Dec 2010 (Maureen Ryan kept talking about the pilot and the series and i remembered one day in Borders)

loved the first one so much read all 4 books in about 5 weeks – lucky it was university holidays (am australian)

took the ‘fact’ of Ned being Jons dad at face value, didn’t form any theories at all in AGoT i just kept filing stuff away – Lyanna dying in blood fever and roses, promise me Ned – Cat and Robert having differing opinions on who the mother was/is -Ned being the epitome of honour accept for Jons birth

got filed under mmmmm interesting

then in ASoS when Edric Dayne is talking to Arya about him and John being milk brothers and Willa my brain stopped – hang on why am i assuming Ned is Jons dad? all we really know about Jon is that he has Stark colouring! and i also reembered we never once hear Ned say or think that Jon is his son just that he calls him Jon or the boy or his blood

then i remembered the Lyanna stuff blood could be child birth but i went with she was kidnapped and raped (i did not know by who)and became pregnant and after developing a fever she wanted Ned to raise the child as a Stark and not to tell anyone about the circumstances of his parentage/birth

i had to know if i was on to something so i typed who are Jon Snows parents? into google and found Westeros, Winter is Coming and Tower of the Hand and was introduced to the theory of R + L = J and i think it makes total sense but knowing GRRM now i wouldn’t put the house on it

Love your work, can’t wait for the next installment

So, having gotten that off of my chest, I am loving the re-read and am looking forward to the rest of it. Thanks for doing this.

1. Who tried to kill Bran? It was Joff, although it was unlikely to be all his idea. I suspect littlefinger had something to do with it, littlfinger is very good at getting people to do things and think it was their own idea. As for his motivation, he wanted to sow chaos and conflict so he can profit

That’s possible, but I could also buy Jaime’s and Tyrion’s opinion of typical Joff idiocracy, though this time motivated by an oddly tender idea motivation. That family dynamic kind of works for me, the boy wanting his father’s approval or simply enacting something he thought he though his father would do. The two “uncles” probably know the boy well.

I am a Littlefinger for Emperor guy, but even I think it’s a reach that he had the means of knowing that such a accident would occur to even push Joff into doing the deed. I think he merely grabbed on to a useful story to further cultivate his ends After all, we do know that Joff is prone to violent spontaneity.
END SPOILERS

A professor asked my classics class once to determine if the story we were reading was plot driven or character driven. That is, did the characters exist and have the attributes that they did to primarily satisfy the needs of the plot or did the plot primarily develop as a consequence of with who the characters were. In my opinion, the best stories are more character driven than plot driven as is the case with Ice and Fire. It lends the story consistency and rationality. A character’s actions and reactions, while not necessarily foreseeable in hindsight are plausible. It makes the story seem less artificial and more alive.

Further, in a story where much cannot be taken at face value, some anchor to “reality” is required lest the reader be set adrift for any sense of causality. If one cannot draw some for one event leading to another the significance of plot developments is lost. Consistent characters who act true to their motives, personalities, and situations provide such stability.

Elena Step off!

1. Who tried to kill Bran? It was Joff, although it was unlikely to be all his idea. I suspect littlefinger had something to do with it, littlfinger is very good at getting people to do things and think it was their own idea. As for his motivation, he wanted to sow chaos and conflict so he can profit.

2. Who killed J? The Queen of Thorns did, the poison was from Sansa’s hairnet, the gems of which looks very much like the description of the tears of Lys from the Maester Cressen chapter in ACOK. There is Ser Dontos telling Sansa that the hairnet is her freedom. Then there is the Queen of Thorns adjusting Sansa’s hairnet before the feast (presumably removed one of the gems), Margaery was probably in on it too, as she was the one who was close enough to slip it into the cup.

Spoilers.
Spoilers.
Spoilers.

So, a couple of things I think i understand and some new questions I didn’t have during the first read:

**SPOILERS**

R+L = J:
– It now seems obvious to me that Rhaegar and Lyanna’s liason was not a kidnapping and that there was mutual consent. Both knew the scandalous implications (Rhaegar was married and I believe Lyanna was betrothed to Robert) but it just didn’t matter to them in the moment. I believe that Lyanna died shortly after giving birth to Rhaegar’s son (John Snow). There are other references to a bloody bed related to childbirth in the Dany chapters. I think Ned’s big secret is twofold – 1. Lyanna’s tryst with Rhaegar was mutual and 2. John is actually a Targ (perhaps the Song of Ice and Fire specifically refers to John). This secret becomes even more important for Ned to keep after Robert’s murderous rage against all remaining Targs.

Robert’s hatred for Rhaegar:
– I think Robert really suspects or knows that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar willingly – so a major slight against Robert to begin with. Furthermore, Rhaegar is everything that Robert is not. Although good with a sword, Rhaegar’s real passion was music, poetry, etc – and chicks dig that 😉 Robert was basically a man’s man and couldn’t compete with Rhaegar’s sensitive side.

Robert’s Rebellion:
– Mad King Aerys really primed the rebellion. He continually slighted Tywin Lannister, including stripping him of the heir to Casterly Rock by bringing Jamie into the Kingsguard. Aerys certainly alienated House Stark by killing Ned’s father and older brother. And I’m sure there were other slight’s against house Barrathon that I can’t think of now.

Some Questions I still have —
Who really tried to kill B?
– We’re sure it wasn’t Tyrion, and I don’t see the motive for Littlefinger. Although Cersie and Jamie had motive, they seem too sophisticated to try and kill Bran in that fashion. Eventually, Tyrion deduces that it must have been Joffrey. Joff had access to the weapon and the common “catspaw”, but I’m still not sure of his motive – unless Joff was aware of his true parentage all along and this was his attempt to protect mom and dad/uncle … hmmm interesting. Perhaps Joff’s disdain of Robert and constant outbursts were his way of trying to gain the attention of his true father, Jamie.

Who killed J?
– I kind of glossed over this question in my first read and assumed Joffrey’s wine was poisoned. But now I believe otherwise. I think the intended target was actually Tyrion and it was his slice of pigeon pie which was poisoned. Joffrey takes a huge bite of Tyrion’s pie as an insult to his uncle, plus Margerey Tyrell didn’t get sick from drinking the same wine as Joff.

** END OF SPOILERS**

I’m sure most/all of these hypothesis have been explored on the Westeros blog, I haven’t read through it in any depth. But anyways – a much more intriguing read the second time around!

I love experiencing Elena’s viewpoint – keep up the good work Elena and Jay!

@ everyone above – I will try to keep that in mind but this whole process is fairly self-conscious and that’s inevitably going to come through. to quote the inimitable andy levy, “i apologize for nothing.” 🙂

I think Robert’s hatred for Rhaegar is explained by the fact that Robert was deeply in love with Lyanna, and despite all his protestations, deep down there is a great fear in him that Lyanna was not “abducted”, but chose to love Rhaegar instead of him. He covers up this fear by fiercely clinging to the idea that she was abducted and raped, so that he can tell himself that he hates Rhaegar for a noble reason rather than personal jealousy.

He needs the abduction rape story to be true because the alternative would completely devastate him.

– SPOILERS Below, Elena step off! –

Regarding Rhaegar, I want to first note that the absence of other negative opinion mention about Rhagear certainly doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or isn’t even rampant/relevant, I get that, but Martin specifically shows us instances of others like Ned and even Cersei who spare him no negative though upon reflecting on him. I don’t know if we know enough to call Rhaegar universally loved, because his reputation wasn’t so solid to stop Brandon Stark from thinking twice before getting himself killed in a fool’s errand. Ned especially, could blame Rhaegar indirectly for the death of his brother and sister, but still only remarks that he doubts Rhaegar would visit a whorehouse. This is why Robert’s opinion baffles me, especially when it seems such a big changing point in his life. If he didn’t have the facts, you’d think he’s have them by now, or did those events happen so fast that nobody cared to talk about it during the backdrop of a war and regime change? I have to admit that the transition itself and how “facts” held eludes me.

It just seems to me that Rhaegar’s position would make it unlikely for his activities to remain so secret to one person (because realistically, why would anyone care to keep such a secret beyond isolated individuals). Though both Selmy and Jorah have reasons not to knock Rhaegar, they both say nothing that would make you believe he is a heinous individual and if one looks at the company he kept, seems like a pretty solid bunch from what little we know of them (Dayne, Connington etc). From Cersei’s words we know that even at Casterly Rock, the cheers (I’m assuming a mix of nobles and smallfolk) for the Rhaegar surpassed even their lord’s.

I don’t claim to have a good handle on this, but Robert’s CONTINUED unique hatred is something I can’t wrap my head around.

—- END SPOILERS – Elenas Allowed below! —-

@pualo Good advice!

I’ll just repeat the opinion that you’re paying way too much attention to what you’re hearing from other people (and maybe misunderstanding), leading you to some unusual ideas about the book that I don’t think you’d get from just reading it. Tell everyone to STFU and let you enjoy it.

I love getting impressions from a first time reader, but I fear for your enjoyment if you never let yourself into the story. These books are immersive, and that’s a huge part of why they’re so good. I’m hoping you’re able to jump in, not just wet your toes.

@Jay
I love your insights, especially regarding Ned/Robert/Children. Definitely brought up some things I’ve not considered. Great stuff!

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Somehow I’d never picked up on the disproportionate hatred Robert has for the Targaryens, and Rhaegar especially. I mean, I knew he hated them, and I knew he hated them more, but I hadn’t really thought much of it.

When I think about it the is a fairly broad, but nowhere near universal, general dislike for the Targaryens because so many of them were batshit terrible rulers, but when it comes to Rhaegar? Well, he was the Last Dragon, and almost universally loved.

Having read this chapter recently I have to agree that it is all about the Crypt for me as well. I remember on my first read being somewhat confused by that scene though. Blue roses? Promises? Blood? I could tell it meant something, but I just couldn’t pay it any mind. I’d figure it out later, but there’s no way it could tell me anything then.

I don’t think anything I’m saying below is too spoilery, though they are elements that occur in the future. No plot points though.

@Mike While I was reading the last chapter I was actually thinking ahead to that scene you’re talking about where Robert mentions the whole sellsword thing to Ned.– one of my favorite scenes, and I have to admit that Robert scenes tend to be memorable to me (even something simple like him shoving an in famous member of the Kingsguard in jest later). I hesitate to call him a scene stealer, but I always listen when the Demon of the Trident talks. The guy likes to party, feast, and wench, on a basic guy level I just can’t totally dismiss him, AND he has heart.

I also agree that Tywin would probably make a damn good King, or at least an effective/stable one, especially considering he’d definitely bring a delegator like Kevan on board. If being honest, Tywin probably THE most qualified guy in Westeros to assume the role.

@Nymeria yup, all in jest. I’m not so sure I’m a Targ fan as much as I’m generally a pro-Empire fan. It’s hard not to like the Starks, and I like them good and well.

@Magn–The kidnapping of Lyanna alone was probably all it took for Robert, although the death of some of Eddard’s family was likely a factor. Lyanna didn’t die until *after* the sack of King’s Landing.

REALLY think anyone is) it’s a good-humored sort of laughing at themselves for having similar reactions at first as much as it would be at me. Certainly everyone is very encouraging. 🙂

But I think it’s hard not to have some awareness as I read of that expectation for “shocking” moments…I think I’d have that even just reading it without the thought-sharing, due to what I’ve been told about these books over the years from fans. And that’s okay. Hell, I was just guilty of doing the same thing to a friend with another series over the weekend-“-ooh, wait till you get to book two, it is DRAMA”….I think it’s natural to want to dangle teasers and warnings in front of friends who are only just discovering the joy of a favorite book/series. So I don’t entirely mind it. But you’re right that it’s probably making me more hesitant to get attached to characters until I feel like I have a good understanding of them.

@ elfy – thanks for not spoilering! 🙂 glad you’re continuing to enjoy the project.

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Elena definitely pegged Robert, but I tend to Jay’s side and have somewhat of a soft spot for the drunken ass-hole. He’s just so out of his element as king. Would anybody else read an alternate-universe book, where Robert wins the throne, gives it to Tywin Lannister (who would probably be a pretty good king) and then follows his actual dream and becomes a sell-sword in the free cities?

I also found it interesting that Elena didn’t talk much about the crypts. As re-readers we know that that stuff is much more important to the major questions of the series. It’s somewhat commendable that Robert still holds Lyanna in his heart, but him thinking his life would be better if she were still alive and married to him are probably pretty far off. I think and Robert/Lyanna marriage would have been awfully explosive (Lyanna seemed to be pretty aware of this).

Can’t wait for the next chapter and the first REAL appearance of Tyrion. I’ll be interested to see what Elena has to say about GRRM’s favorite imp.

And Jon. He was one of my favorite characters when I first read the books, but as I read Ran’s boards, and re-read the books I can see how people find him whiny and emo. I still like Jon a lot, but I wonder if Elena will be sympathetic to or annoyed by Jon.

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