I don’t blame Sansa for her actions before her father’s death; as I said, she is a child, and I might have made some of the poor decisions that she did, as well. She loved her father and thought she could help him. The twin blows of his death and the revelation that her Prince Charming was a monster devastated Sansa. And after that, she was stuck as a captive pawn in the hands of her father’s murderers.

Women in the world of this saga have it worse than men; they are usually second-class citizens and subject to rape. Even the dragon princess, Daenerys, starts out as trade goods, sold to a barbarian warlord at the age of thirteen, before she begins her journey to power. Sansa does not have the fierceness of rebellion that was born into Arya and nurtured by a loving father; but she does not lack a certain grit. Some young girls in her position, as a victimized hostage in a corrupt court, might have turned vicious or self-destructive; Sansa tried her best to hold onto high standards, to remain gentle and courteous, in the face of considerable persecution. Whether it might have served Sansa better to have rebelled, to have learned to rely on herself rather than male protectors, is something that can be debated. It seems to me that in terms of survival in a very hostile world and in societies that are intent on holding them captive or killing them, Sansa and Arya have, so far, done equally well, or equally poorly, depending on how you view their situations. They are both still learning. I think Martin is subtly setting the lesson of the importance of self-reliance before Sansa; and I think she will learn it.

I still entertain a wistful hope that Sansa might grow up enough, in a few years, to come to love Tyrion; what a couple they might make. I’m not sure that will happen; frankly, Martin is capable of very surprising twists and turns; for all we know, in terms of romantic/marital partnerships, Tyrion might end up with Daenerys; couldn’t you see them ruling the world, or at least half of it?

“Even if you give her the benefit of her ubringing, and the expectations upon her and the expectations she has for herself.. she’s still not likable or even relatable. She’s a spoiled brat. She’s a snob. She’s a milksop. She’s naive and disinterested in all the actually interesting characters.”

I don’t think that’s true at all. I think she’s just not sympathetic to readers of fantasy. She’s a kid, she’s got dreams that don’t match reality. She’s not a brat because she DOES care about others, she just doesn’t understand her sister. Arya is pretty bratty too for all that people love her. But people who read fantasy don’t tend to be the people who like the idea of being pampered and pretty and following the rules. The women especially don’t want to have to be forced to be a princess or a lady. They like the idea of the rogue and the rebel who can wield a weapon. I think it’s remarkably brace of GRRM to make a POV character like this and not make her a simpering idiot.

Her character development throughout the series is nothing short of amazing. While she doesn’t truly bloom and and become an incredibly interesting character until A Feast for Crows (and anyone who can’t see what she’s turning into there is blind) it’s only because until that book she is trapped. But that trap, while stifling, confining and terrifying allows her to grow and become something quick and sharp and dangerous.

She’s never been stupid, she’s just not sympathetic to the traditional readership of fantasy books.

I guess that’s possible and perhaps a personal bias (even one that’s universally regarded to be true) might be in play but I always figured Septa Modane might have come down hard on Arya because it reflected negatively on her professionally (regarding Arya’s lack of social”grace”). Though admittedly the two thoughts don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

interesting point…one that also helps Elena’s case I think, because septa Mordane clearly loves Sansa and clearly hates the way Arya acts…

I think there is another candidate for the person who taught Sansa about Stark and Tully coloring: Septa Mordane.

Remember the North does not worship the Seven, so it’s very likely she came to Winterfell with Catelyn from Riverrun, and given that she probably grew up in Riverrun as a subject of the Tullys naturally have a greater regard for Tully traits than what is to her strange Northern traits.

I have had some experience with children whose parents are very well off and have nannies who do a large portion of the raising, and to my observation often at that a young age they reflect and taste and value system of their nannies on many minor things even more so than their parents because they spent more time with their nannies and are influenced by them.

I want to give Catelyn the benefit of the doubt that she would not openly disparage one of her daughters’ appearance to another.

SPOILERS

Even if Renly were gay (and not bisexual), that doesn’t preclude the marriage having been consummated. There are plenty of gay people in our world who come out of the closet after having been in a marriage for years, with children.

SPOILERS!!

Or when she stabs The Tickler! I had goosebumps and was actually jumping up and down!

Hmm, yes, he strikes me as slightly harsher with his sons. Remember how he was slightly displeased to learn that Rickon was a tad diffident about his direwolf? Winter is Coming means get your Bad Ass Attitude on!

SPOILERS!!

Nevertheless, when Ned hired Syrio, I was dancing in the streets!

Not A Spoiler:

#DarthRachelMustDie

SPOILERS:

But she’s right, if Renly were bisexual, he would at least have consummated his marriage with Margaery.

And how do I know he did not?

Because the Tyrells told me so.

Fact!

SPOILERS:

Sansa fights with what she’s been taught to fight with (when she does finally have to fight back), so in many ways she’s by far the most realistic of the two girls; Arya is the “out of place” creature in this setting and time.

But I still love every kill Arya makes. Her escape from Harrenhal was chill-inducing. I want to see them do THAT on the HBO show.

Ned certainly gives her a “longer leash” than he might normally give one of his other kids. With Bran, for instance, he felt much more stern.

But that could simply be the father / son relationship as well.

SPOILERS!!

Hmm, I actually like the way you see Sansa, it’s forgiving for reasons I can actually relate to on some level. I guess I get so irritated because Ned was killed. Bad, I know. 🙂

I have been waiting for a Sansa chapter since you guys started! If you remember, I’m a huge Sansa fan. I was a huge princess-oholic (maybe still am a little bit…)! I never liked pants, even jeans very much, until college. When I was 11, it was so intense, I probably would have fed my family rat poison if someone came along and told me that’s what it would take.

Sansa, of course, would never willingly do something so foul, she’s too much the lady. She has a naïveté that I find charming, rather than “stupid” as some other readers do. I cannot fault her for it; she’s a much nicer person than I am. She’s eleven, she’s become engaged to a handsome prince, and she’s lived a happy, comfortable, sheltered existence so far. Arya is actually much more cognizant of the world and how it works by the mere fact that she’s had contact AT ALL with the lower classes. I think Sansa has probably never had a real conversation with anyone other than her family, the family’s “upstairs” staff like the Septa, Maester Luwin, and Old Nan, and her few friends like Jayne Poole and Beth Cassel (as Axechucker noted earlier). I cannot imagine she’s ever done more than exchange a few words or pleasantries with everyone else in Winterfell.

I love the way she describes everyone in this chapter, and I hope you keep it in your mind to compare with things to come.

@Jay (SPOILERS)

I certainly think Renly was wholeheartedly ready to follow through when he made his offer to Ned. I think everyone who had come to know Ned by that point realized what an honest and loyal person he was. Renly could not have found a better ally to his purposes in King’s Landing, and he had no choice but to flee when Ned turned him down. If he knew Ned, he must have known Cersei even better. Renly knew trying to reason with her was foolish and suicidal; Ned couldn’t see that, because he did not understand Cersei, and it cost him his life.

One of the saddest things to me is when I see readers blaming Sansa for Ned’s death. Sansa is probably the most similar in temperament to her father than ANY of the children. They both are so honest and loyal that they cannot understand the extent of how UNtrustworthy and treacherous other people can be. One of my only hopes for the series is that Sansa openly realizes that she cannot trust others (in Feast for Crows she “pretends” at it, but she hasn’t fully let go of her childhood yet, so she has not committed to it yet). In this chapter, Sansa IS living in a song. Even though the Hound tells her that life is not a song, and some part of her knows that, she fears fully accepting that truth. She fears being left with only despair and unhappiness.

That is why she refuses to grow up and “see” or “understand” adulthood at any more than an unconscious level.

I have to agree with you that Ned does feel that little rush of pride in Arya, especially as her resemblance to Lyanna becomes more pronounced. That struck me the first time it occurred to me, and I have to say I enjoy it immensely. 🙂

it’s a water matter

***Spoilers***

RE: Arya = violent, Sansa = Nonviolent

I think you might have hit the nail on the head as to why I just.. loathe Sansa. To the point where sometimes I just couldn’t bring myself to read her chapters

She’s sooooo stereotypically “female” (especially at the beginning)… I hate her. I hate that Martin wrote her. I hate that she exists. She’s everything I fight against. This idea that women are peaceful and men are violent, that women are peacemakers BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH *loathe* Sansa IS that. Her greatest “weapon” is her ability to manipulate and comfort.

Although I’m very intrigued by this idea that she could be the only Stark left alive at the end… INTERESTING. There is great merit in that idea. That could def happen.

Can I be #teamSansa and #teamRachel?

Thanks Elena! I do love discussing the sisters, for some reason, lol!

Hmm, you make a good point on Cat’s observation. Perhaps this is unconsciously tied to her resentment of Jon? Hmmm…

SPOILERS!!!

Oh, and I wouldn’t count on her gratitude lasting too much longer if she figures out he had anything to do with Eddard’s fall.

SPOILERS!!

To me, LF’s betrayal of Eddard, lies to Cat, and general manipulation are overtly offensive, especially as they establish him as an enemy to the Starks. I realize I’m in the minority there, however. 😛

I will also admit to hypocrisy in that I’m creeped out by LF’s advances on Sansa, but NOT by The Hound’s advances on her. Yes, hypocritical. I accept it. I embrace it! But anyway…

I do see your point about Joffery being sad. I had wondered if there was anything that would make The Hound so defensive of him, besides looking for an excuse to fight. He had close contact with the prince and would have seen him in unguarded moments. I wouldn’t be surprised if he figured out that the queen’s children weren’t Robert’s.

Even if you give her the benefit of her ubringing, and the expectations upon her and the expectations she has for herself.. she’s still not likable or even relatable. She’s a spoiled brat. She’s a snob. She’s a milksop. She’s naive and disinterested in all the actually interesting characters.

***Spoilers****

Now.. this is great from a story persepctive because her innocence and naivete help to contrast against some of the more horrible people she interacts with.

Sansa is the type of character that needs to grow and change and go thru some serious shit before you like her. Maybe that’s going to happen (the growing and changing part.. b/c mostly I feel like she’s still grieving for the life she could/should have had)

Anyways.. I will never like Sansa. I have higher hopes for my gender.

PS – Renly is so not BI.. he’s just gay. Renly/Loras needs an epic poem. Stat.

Cat scolding Arya’s behavior or telling her to be like her sister is expressive of disapproval, even if it was not said with the intention of being an insult. and it might have been expressed to sansa as a “you’re so lovely like the women in my family” positivity, with it being left unsaid but still obviously there that arya, by extension, is unlovely because she does not look that way. children are quite perceptive to what is not said as well as what is…i don’t think catelyn had to speak down about arya to express to sansa that she felt it. and i think she does. not that she doesn’t love her, but that she doesn’t LIKE her the way she likes sansa. some children get along with parents; some don’t. i see sansa catelyn having a bond of commonality, like arya does with ned, while arya and catelyn have a more antagonistic relationship bc they do not share that commonality.

As to whether I’ll get through the book before the series: I hope to with write ups (again I am ahead of where we are with posting) but if that’s not feasible then I will just finish the book quickly in order to watch the show. Worst case scenario is I blow through the book making tons of notes on my reactions and finish the chapter write ups retroactively.

And to be honest I really haven’t paid that much attention to the hype and news on the show, for that reason. 🙂