Barring a timeline check of Jaime’s attack on Ned’s men (and Ned himself) in Kingslanding I can actually buy most of that. That timeline seems like it would be tighter than that though as if I recall correctly, when Tyrion talks to Tywin, Jaime had already “covered himself in glory” (or something close to that) in the war. How long was Tyrion captive? What you say is possible about Catelyn’s perception of Tywin, but it seems to be a equally a reasoanble understandable truth that arresting the Heir of Castlery Rock may be a bad idea (Theon is different, that occurred after a war, a war that his family lost).

Yes, Tywin reacted “pretty quick”, but the continent is also pretty big and moving armies around is a big deal, so it must have taken some time. As far as I remember the first reaction was Gregor’s ravaging. The actual war started only after Robert’s and Ned’s deaths.

So, the next question is: Was this reaction to be expected? And who could have anticipated it?

Catelyn doesn’t know Tywin. She may know him as a man of court, but not as a man of war. Whatever she knows comes from some stories other have told her. One example is that Tywin was quite passive during the last war. He acted only when Aerys’ defeat was unavoidable. Ned could surely have told her that story.

So, if she doesn’t know Tywin she must apply common sense. Again, it is common practice to have a hostage from the opposite party. The idea is that your enemy won’t attack you out of fear of loosing that hostage. A good example and also right under Catelyn’s nose is Theon. And Tyrion is a good hostage. He is the heir to Casterly Rock, since Jaime and Cersei cannot be. Why would Tywin attack (= start a war) and go against common practice? Doesn’t he care about his son.

That sounds entirely plausable, but am I incorrect in saying (need a timeline master) that Tywin moved as soon as he knew Tyrion was in custody or did he actually wait for mistreatment in the Vale? I could be off but I was thinking Tyrion left the Vale and his father was already in the field. Am I missing some other event that occurred in the meantime that caused this? I’m remembering Tywin telling Tyrion that his capture forced his hand. of course, I realize that the chief motivation aare the events of King’s Landing, but do we have evidence of what Tywin was doing after he heard of Tyrion’s arrest:

“By my lights, it was you who started this,” Lord Tywin replied. “Your brother Jaime would never have meekly submitted to capture at the hands of a woman.”
“That’s one way we differ, Jaime and I. He’s taller as well, you may have noticed.”
His father ignored the sally. “The honor of our House was at stake. I had no choice but to ride. No man sheds Lannister blood with impunity…

Also even forget that, what of Jaime’s reaction? Did Catelyn have Tyrion when Jaime confronted Ned and there we GOT Robert’s reaction, didn’t we? Jaime can start a war just as good as Tywin.

Also: a note for all, let’s stop with the “since you completely misunderstood” intros. If ones reads their post without them they lose nothing in content and it only adds to be misconstrued by the reader. In other words, nobody takes that well, so cut it out.

SPOILERS

I bring up the Aryn situation only as piling on to a hypothetical event of Robert actually marching against Tywin because of the attempted murder of Bran. If Robert is swayed at all, he would be exposed to that information as well (proof or not). For the record, I don’t think Robert would have done anything, but I do think that’s the only avenue they have (excluding doing nothing and doing something smart like just having Tyrion killed — which of course runs up against the Stark weakness). Bringing Tyrion to Robert is just as likely to have Catelyn arrested as anything else (oddly, that would be justice). If the ultimate goal was to present Tyrion to Robert, she’s worse off than I thought.

You have Tyrion (wrongfully) killed and then you sit and wait on the rest of the Lannisters.

Spoiler-
Once more, since I think you’ve missed teh key point (which wasn’t stated), then I’ll drop it regardless.
“Does one think a decided Robert would frown away from going to Lannisport and taking Tyrion by force if he deemed his family guilty of an attempted murder (and by extension crippling) his best friend’s and Hand’s son?”
No. But if Robert has to go to Lannisport, or make any effort whatsoever, there won’t be a decision. The only way to force Robert into taking any action is to deliver the evidence *and* have the prisoner already apprehended. At that point he *has* to do something, and if the evidence says guilty then the Lannisters will be out of luck (or that is the best possibility of such a result). Without the accused already in secure captivity there is no chance of Robert ever facing up to the problem. no matter what the evidence.
The Arryn matter still has no proof, so can’t be used against the Lannisters yet.

Just as importantly, once (guilty) Tyrion figures out Catelyn has been secretly down to Kings Landing then she has no chance of getting home. She’ll be set upon by ‘brigands’ in Lannister pay before the next day is out.

Heh, you misunderstood so badly I’ll come back anyway and have one more go… 🙂

There is no killing Tyrion.
There is no marching on Tywin.

You hold Tyrion in secure, but comfortable (as possible) and honourable (relatively) custody – notice he was unbound once he was unable to escape.
You *don’t* bring him to Kings Landing, where the Queen can go nuts and all hell can break loose.

You send a message to the King, telling him that Tyrion is accused of murdering Bran and held securely but safely, awaiting the Kings Justice.
The king *must* respond. His wife’s brother is in custody, and accused of murdering a noble child. Its simply not something he can let slide. He also can’t just say ‘release him’ without looking like the most un-kingly ass in history – Roberts an oaf, but not that stupid and Cersei is more likely to get his back up than anything else if she hassles him.
The king has little option but to order Tyrion brought to KL to face justice (well, he could go to Tyrion, but that isn’t happening, is it!)
At that stage the Lannister’s can no longer move on Tyrion or his captors directly without convincing everyone he is guilty. Their best chance is to fight it ‘in court’ so to speak.
Further, the Starks haven’t done anything unreasonable, and should Tyrion be found innocent and released then they have earned nothing more from the Lannisters that the already evident dislike and enmity. Tywin isn’t going to start a war under Roberts nose if Tyrion is released safely without mistreatment.

The most likely net result is that Robert becomes a semi-active party, with direct orders given out and the Lannister’s can’t do a lot to prevent Tyrion from at least *facing* the King’s (literally) Justice, without directly crossing an active Robert (which is going to *really* activate and motivate him!), which they aren’t (supposedly) strong enough to do. Obviously we know that Regicide is their preferred option, but it isn’t a reasonable consideration for Catelyn.

Logically it should work. The two problem points are a) Mad Lyssa screwed things completely and b) the Lannister’s used Regicide as an option, removing Robert from the equation in favour of Joffrey-Cersei.

I don’t get that at all. if that’s the case, she could have done nothing and let the king Justice handle it, the one you are saying “Tywin would have had to take it meekly or face the entire realm, united behind Robert.” If we believe that, where Tyrion goes is irrelevant if you believe that to be true. Does one think a decided Robert would frown away from going to Lannisport and taking Tyrion by force if he deemed his family guilty of an attempted murder (and by extension crippling) his best friend’s and Hand’s son? In such a case, would anyone believe that Tyrion acted on his own, AND let’s not forget the Aryn matter would come into play certainly. Robert would go to war without question.

That decision could have been made without ever leaving King’s Landing in the first place, and they decided against it. Again, I don’t knock what she was trying to accomplish or even the War it would start. I knock the idea of the arrest itself without having the Crown behind you to begin with.

I won’t argue about Lysa, she definitely screwed Catelyn’s intention (as flawed as it was) – we will get to that when we get there!

-Spoilers-
“in no circumstance was Tyrion going to die (wrongfully, I might add, though it probably wouldn’t make a difference) and Tywin not seek retribution.”
Really? I would have thought, and I am sure that Catelyn thought, that if she could get Tyrion to face the Kings Justice from the *King*, Tywin would have had to take it meekly or face the entire realm, united behind Robert.

First, she tried to avoid the situation totally – she was trying to hide at the Inn when Tyrion recognised her!
Having ‘met’ him on the road, she realises that he (because she ‘knows’ he is guilty) will figure out why she is there, and simply won’t go back to KL and will avoid justice entirely – once he reaches Lannister lands he will be safe for sure, even against the *Kings* Kings justice.
So she has to take him prisoner or he gets away scot free.
Having taken him prisoner, as others have pointed out, she really has only two choices – north or east. So she picks the obvious one, loudly for the inevitable pursuit, and follows the other, surely intending to get Tyrion to face the Kings Justice from the actual King, in time. Even if she stayed safely in the Vale and merely wrote to the King from there, she will get something from him and Tyrion is still secured awaiting justice. That would be the best result all round for her, and all of Westeros except the Lannisters.
Mad Lyssa screws things up and is all history from there.

I see a lot of railing against this decision, but little acknowledgment that her hand was forced against her will and that she also had a reasonable plan with a reasonable chance of success – the best that could be hoped.

I want to address the issue of double standards for a moment. They exist and are alive and well in almost any society, indeed the concept of society almost allows for it fundamentally. Ned Stark and Catelyn Stark can do and get away with things that the people beneath them cannot (note the fate of Arya’s friend, and not Arya herself — that had everything to do with station). If Tyrion killed some peasant, there’s not anything that can be done about it (minus some random vigilante action). Generally, double standards exist and often are great tools to keep people out of trouble that’s above their heads, whether morally correct, fair or otherwise.

We know this is a setting that’s largely based on doing what you are powerful enough to get away with. I don’t have an issue with Catelyn arresting or even outright murdering Tyrion in cold blood. I have a problem with her seeming inability to foresee the immediate repercussions of whatever action she does take, and while she’s not wrong all the time, when she is it’s HUGE.

The only defensible position is that the Starks thought that war could not be avoided no matter their actions, because in no circumstance was Tyrion going to die (wrongfully, I might add, though it probably wouldn’t make a difference) and Tywin not seek retribution. If that is the case, I still don’t see why you – the Hand of the damn king – don’t take your concerns publicly to the King. Why? Because at the end of the day if the throne is not on your side, you’re losing that war against the Lannisters anyways. So yes, because it’s Tyrion it should be a huge consideration.

Is it worth me going to war I know I’m going to lose because of the attempted murder of a son that I can’t prove (so much so it ISN”T true – Of course, Jaime DID try to kill Bran, but that’s almost even worse if you’re Tyrion!) Granted, the Starks might think so.

What if there was a poll between the powerful women of Westeros (Cersei, Queen of Thornes, etc.) and the qestions would be as follows:

A. If a Lord of a large house brings an illegitimate child (bastard) to his court and his wife (the Lady of the house) chooses to raise that child equal to her own. What would you think of her? Would you think of her as stupid or as kind and reasonable?

B. Same conditions as in A, but the bastard is either the oldest child (direct heir to the house) or the second oldest (direct heir to the house when the oldest one dies from an “unfortunate accident”). Whould that additional condition change your opinion of the Lady compared to A.

C. How would you behave if your husband brought an illegitimate child to your court?

—-

How do you think would the powerful women answer these questions?

SPOLER ahead

re: Catelyn vs. Tyrion

For all that she knows Tyrion was responsible for the assassionation attempt. She had the dagger and Littlefinger claimed it was Tyrion’s. Then she meets Tyrion on the road (Is he to be blamed for having recognised Catelyn?). Should she have acted or not (the action beeing the attempt to bring Tyrion to justice)? If Tyrion wasn’t a Lannister, then arresting him for a an accused crime would have been the right thing to do, wouldn’t it? But Tyrion is a Lannister and the power of Tywin Lannister is behind him. So, arresting him is suddenly the wrong thing to do? Kind of a double standard, isn’t it? Or is it just consideration of the reality of the situation? By that definition Rebert should never had started his rebellion against the king, as there was a real chance that he could had lost. If he had, would he be declared stupid too? Since he won he is the hero now. So, what is the lesson to be learned here? Success make the means right and failure makes them wrong?

After the decision to arrest Tyrion was made the following actions should be considered separately. Catelyn goal was to ensure that the arrest leads to a positive outcome (from her point of view), which is Tyrions conviction. There are only a couple of things she could have done. Staying with Tyrion in one place would be stupid, as she was in no position to defend herself against Tywin. Going west is either very risky or very stupid or both. The Lannisters are in the west, so going there would increase the chance to loose Tyrion. There is Riverrun in middle, but going there would endanger it, as Riverrun is practically in the backyard of the Lannisters. It would provoke a war much more directly, just because there are so many possibilities and time to do more stupid (irreversible) things. Going south is equally stupid, as there are too many Lannister men whould could re-take Tyrion. That leaves going North or east. Going north is the obvious solution, but the way is long and dangerous and there is the real possibility that Lannister men would catch up with her. Going east is dangerous because of the mountain clans, but it is also the shortest way. It would have worked, weren’t it fo Lysa and her stupid trial.

Should she had arrived in Winterfell successfully, then Tywin would not had attacked. Moving an army all the way to Winterfell through the riverlands and half of the north (Stark land) would take too much time. And even if Tywin tried, by the time he arrived in Winterfell, there would be an official word from the king that should have stopped any rivalries. Then there would be a trial where Tyrion would be found not guilty. Catelyn wouldn’t be happy about it, but there would be no war.

As I recall the scene (will know more soon) it did seem kind of a room/head-spinning decision, I look forward to re-reading the parts immediately before her calling on the loyalties to her father’s house to see how it strikes me. I want to say (and this is completely a stab) that her “wrong” choices seems to written as slightly mad and haphazard with an incredible focus to her train of thought even beyond the inside look Martin POV gives naturally. I’m interested in seeing if all of this is just my own mind wanting to play tricks with me!

Pride is pride, and whether or not she chooses to have it isn’t nearly as relevant as who she chooses to vent her anger on. Jon is not to blame, but he feels her cold wrath regardless. It’s cruel and rather puzzling in a woman who forgave her husband to begin with.

And she is NOT denied personhood. She may not be listened to when she truly needs/wants to be, but she’s FAR from irrelevant!

SPOILERS (kind of)

Does Renly’s potential host at this time not include Randal Tarly?

Also, I’m not so sure that at the time Jaime being killed in custody was big picture a bad thing if anyone was worried about the war that involved 1000s of lives.

My take on it is that some characters are meant to be turned around later, but intentionally given a bad first impression. Others are probably meant to be…oh, I’m not even sure if I can use villain or antagonist, but simply someone that the reader doesn’t like even if they’re not in a literary form sense filling a role of antagonist. For me, because I’m identifying with Jon and Arya from an early point, I feel like Catelyn is the latter. But is she meant to also be an example of simply a woman of her time and place? That is very possible, and something I’m trying to keep in mind as I examine her actions/reasonings/motives.

@ everyone. thank you for continued spoiler warnings, please do keep them, but i have decided to stop reading any comments that are not addressed to me. I skimmed a few not labeled as spoilers and could see even without EVENT spoilers that they might be emotional/character perception spoilers. It’s cool if you’d rather talk to Jay and let me keep wandering through the fields picking flowers, but, er, if you DO want to ask me something please please please put it at the top of your comment and “@ Elena” and then I’ll look. Thanks!!!

*SPOILERS*

As I recall the scene (will know more soon) it did seem kind of a room/head-spinning decision, I look forward to re-reading the parts immediately before her calling on the loyalties to her father’s house to see how it strikes me. I want to say (and this is completely a stab) that her “wrong” choices seems to written as slightly mad and haphazard with an incredible focus to her train of thought even beyond the inside look Martin POV gives naturally. I’m interested in seeing if all of this is just my own mind wanting to play tricks with me!

Catelyn I think is unintentionally such a disliked character because of how she treats the most popular characters in the book i.e. John, Jamie, and Tyrion. To the readers who develop such an attachment to these characters she appears to make bad decisions or comes off as a “bitch.”

As far as Ned making her stay in the North its a perfectly reasonable request. While Robb could have handled the North alright, the threat of treachery from the South is strongly suspected and in this case you would want her to advise Robb since she would have the most insight and experience.

As far as her treatment of John, remember her house is one of the great houses equal to the Lanisters. We know how Cersie treats Robert’s Bastard’s and while Catelyn is cold and Bitchy towards John she never plots his demise and she even allows the strong bonds to form between her children and him. I think while her inability to get over the insult is a flaw the way she treats him does show that she has a sense of honor, pride, and isn’t capricious or vindictive.

Quite often her observations and advice is spot on. Her assessment of Renly was right and her advice to Robb and her brother was good but seldom followed. The marriage arrangement essentially gave Robb the power necessary to hold the North, but we all know he screwed that up. Even freeing Jamie wasn’t the most horrible of decisions. The Lanisters have great cunning and nearly freed him and it seems perfectly reasonable that Jamie wouldn’t have survived long being captured with all the calls for execution and just the general conditions she found when she freed him. Again her judgment was correct that he keep his word to protect her daughters.

All in all her decisions by themselves appear to be good ones, the mistakes come more from her lack of knowldge of events out of her control. And these seem to be a result of her time in the North. Would she have trusted Petyr or went to the Vale if she seen how her sister had changed? While her actions and decisions annoy me they seem to be reasonable when she makes them.

Still, I do not agree that Arya and Catelyn’s relationship is up in the air. It has already (by chapter 10) been established that Catelyn favours some of her children over others, those being Bran and Sansa.

All her thoughts about Arya are negative (she is a trial, she despairs of ever making a lady of her and so on), and her current strategy seems to be to apply force to make Arya into a poor Sansa immitation. Indeed, at the end of Aryas first chapter, it is clear that she is often punished by her mother for “unladylike” behavior. She would not approve of the sword. They seem to have a distant relationship.

-SPOILERS, BEWARE!-:

Later, it becomes even more apparent by Aryas thougths that her mother is a distant figure to her. She seldom thinks of her, and never in a warm or affectionate way. She dreams of her brothers, and of Winterfell. Not her mother.

Catelyn also spares few thougths of Arya. When it becomes likely that she is dead (she is not mentioned in the letters from Sansa/Cersei or in other communication), Catelyn is much less distressed than for any of her other children later on, or even from Brans non-fatal fall.

Catelyn is a brave and wise woman, and if Robb had listened more to her and less to his bannermen he would have done well. Remember that Catelyn is rigth quite often, but noone listens to her at those instances. People seem to only listen to her “wrong” advice, and never to her clearer insigths.
But she is not a very good mother to Arya, whom she neglects compared to her other children.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t she have this same attitude towards Theon? Or was it Ned, as well?

Lian,

I completely agree with that and we see a great number of houses/characters in this very book practice the same type of caution (even of non-bastards in Tarly’s position). My issue would be that obviously Ned had made his decision on the matter and in doing so still seemed to respect Catelyn’s wishes when he could (not having him seated with the royal family etc). I don’t knock Catelyn on this, it’s just the extent of the cruelty that bugs me (note, that Ned used the exact words: Cruel). In some way this is another example of Catelyn making a decision and clinging to it.

I just wanted to point out that Catelyn’s distrust of Jon was not completely unfounded or ridiculous. History is filled with examples of bastards that seized control of what they saw as their inheritance, and even killed their half-siblings. The Blackfyre rebellion is the Westrosi version. Even if Jon was totally loyal to Robb or his heirs, Catelyn had no assurance his children would be.
By raising Jon among his trueborn children, Eddard was publicly acknowledging him as his son, and making it much easier for Jon to seize control of Winterfell if he wanted to.

Tyrion seeing Cat wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, as I recall. She wanted to get home quietly and with as little notice as possible, but arresting Tyrion was a spur of the moment madness that she acted on without thinking, and since I cannot fathom what her purpose was (and neither can anyone else) I think it’s perfectly reasonable to call it stupid.

You know, just to throw this out there, I actually would have no issue with Catelyn’s action regarding Tyrion if she was in a position of power (not in that moment but overall). As you say, the law is fluid and Catelyn took advantage (not meant as a pejorative) of that moment, and though she is in what is perhaps the most optimal position (husband is the new hand, in some regards on her stomping ground and a lady of some distinction) it’s the longview that bothers me. I know this makes me morally objectionable (perhaps not in the setting) but Tywin does what he does because in some regard I think he thinks he somewhat untouchable and relative to the other houses, he probably is (for many reasons, not the least of which is semi-capitulation of the throne in his favor via inactivity). I think Tywin looks at problems from a position of power and can wield it because people know he can and will. I also think ee need to account for Robert’s feeling on the house he married to – they gave him his throne and the post-war Lannister alliance is probably the most important of all.

I always wonder what would have happened if Catelyn was able to take Tyrion to Winterfell and set up defenses as Ned requested. What happens? I see a very pissed off Tywin no matter what happens, and a Tywin who has leverage in KL where Ned is defenseless. I just don’t understand her point. if it’s a king’s justice issue. Legally the hand of the King could have issued the orders himself, sure it may have caused a shitstorm, but it would have been on record. Why? Because don’t they know that Tyrion went to the Wall and even be able to map out a possible return route that likely would have to go through Stark or Tully territory?

I don’t have issues with her objective, I have issues with not being able to fathom what exactly it was. If she is arresting Tyrion for the attempted murder of her son, considering her stature, that has to be a death sentence right? I don’t see the Starks taking a stack of Lannister gold and forgetting.

What do you think she was attempting and does that route end in a manner that isn’t open war?

Or it could be that the reader has learned that Ned is a pretty fair in this given setting especially regarding children, and if a reader believes that we might assume that Catelyn is being cruel – again, Robb’s own question/reaction to Jon in this chapter told me he expects Catelyn to be a bitch to Jon, – I see no evidence or just choose not to believe that such treatment is unique to Bran’s circumstance. I take it exactly as “Oh, this establishes that Catelyn is cruel” as it pertains to Jon, because if somebody said that to me – another person who in the moment wouldn’t give one thought about the pressure put on her by society – I’d take it exactly as that.

For future reference: By being “wrong”, she made a poor decision(s), which encompasses “Martin wrote a confident woman who simply can’t predict the future, and who did a folly for love like a lot of other people in the series.” Lots of confident people who also can’t predict the future make perfectly reasonable decisions as well. I call those people right.