Playin’ with Ice and Fire – A Game of Thoughts | Jon Snow Chapter 10

Elena–

How do you feel this chapter fit into the others, especially coming after the last few?

Do you feel that Martin is setting us up to dislike characters intentionally, or is there something more nuanced going on with presentations like Cat?

Jay [[there may be spoilers, Elena]]–

I have to confess, I am not in your camp with regards to Cat. While I don’t always think she makes the best decisions, I don’t think ANYONE makes the best decisions all the time in this series, which is what makes it so fascinating for me. I get the comparison to Cersei, and I think Martin probably wants us to ask the questions you pose regarding their similarity or difference, but I also think that moments like her confrontation with Tyrion or the parlay reveal her as significantly more competent than you give her credit for–seriously, are you trolling with the claim that the Blackfish (who is awesome, I admit), is the only competent Tully? Leaving aside the legacy of Hoster, it feels like a statement designed to provoke outrage.

Especially at the beginning, there is an interesting comparison between Cersei and Cat in their willingness to play ‘the game of thrones,’ if nothing else. And Cat understands the political situations in a different way from her husband–one wonders what would have happened had Robb been old enough to handle Winterfell on his own and Cat could have gone to the Red Keep with him. But suggesting that she is incompetent because she is the victim of a number of circumstances over which she had little control seems odd and potentially dismissive to me. (My turn to be inflammatory? 🙂 )

In any case, I certainly feel more sympathy than frustration with her character, even when she makes the most bone-headed of choices, but that’s the same for me with Ned. God, if only he had not met with Cersei in the godswood, right? If only Cat had been able to see Petyr for what he was, right?

None of this detracts from the great work I think the two of you are doing, and I really enjoy getting the chance to read these. Please pat yourselves on the back and have a nice tasty beverage for me, okay?

Spoilers

I think we can all agree that circumstances are different for any and everyone, especially as portrayed in Martin’s work. I think Koby addresses my concerns, but I will take it further: to Cersei her entire life is and has been this game, it’s very much second nature to her now where I think she often reacts almost involuntarily to it. This makes her no less or excuses her stupidity or outright bitchitude (or whatever anyone want call or no call her, mind you). While I’m not unmindful of her grief,,there were plenty of examples where Catelyn independently makes decisions and leaps that make me continually question her. Where Cerseii is delusional and possibly even slightly mad, Catelyn is just plum dumb. Not just for the outcome of her decisions but for making them in the first place. In a very odd way, she’s dumb – yet perfectly suitable – in the way Sansa is on track to be (as we know her now). I’m not at all saying there is an absence of admirable qualities (as I noted before, I think her children reflect that), I’m just my perception of Catelyn in this re-read is exposing me to some odd sense of exhilaration from Catelyn, and perhaps her own initial chapter sent that up even though she has clearly come to terms and maybe even loved her life. I just got this crazy idea that Catelyn was reveling a bit. There is a line later about the knife in the attempt where Catelyn says something like “I can attest to the blade/shapness”, and I just got this sense of somebody who enjoyed being dramatic. The chapter where she captures Tyrion is not the first where she will ask a bunch of grown men to acknowledge loyalty to her, she does it in this very chapter surrounded by men who have already done so. The Tyrion arrest especially is bewildering – what did she think was going to happen? She takes in pride in knowing everybody and the ways of court, has she ever heard of a guy named Tywin Lannister? ,

There may have been a reason why Ned left her at home in the first place! Rob, Luwin and Ser Rodrick would have been just fine in the North. Its almost as if she nimbly and willingly dodges every instance that would have her not fucking something up. SHE has to go to Ned, SHE has to arrest Tyrion, SHE has to see Jaime. In none of these instances is she the direct victim, she overtly interjects herself ,and her decisions are all either outright dumb (even if justifiable — though I think prison is full of such cases) or she was being manipulated in the first place. Wht separates Ned from her is that Ned knows he wants no part of any of this. Catelyn while content, makes me feel like she think she’s displaced and cold thrive in the game.

We will get the Tully in a bit, I have lot to say about them later, though on a fundamental level they actually may be be the most laudable of the High Houses I do think viewing Catelyn with this new found sense of excitement I feel oozing out of her is going to be interesting for me. I’m interested in seeing if Elena and I will clash on some instances later, and if she will view Catelyn’s taking initiative as a good reason or a trade off for making what were revealed to be less than optimal decisions.

I should note that I’m not trying to compare the two in the sense that it would be hard for me to choose which one I’d want to live next to or meet at the pub, I think Catelyn is perfectly functionable outside of the game (where Ceresei is a psycho for thinking nothing exists beyond it), but I think there is a comparison to be made and I don’t think Catelyn and Cerseii (or anyone) are completely different in their desires and motivations. We can talk about degrees all we want, and certainly there is a cruel pettiness to Cersei (and that’s putting it lightly) but Catelyn’s selfish (let’s be honest) BIG decisions have a huge impact on a lot of people and are at times equally as rational as Cersei’s. Her sister is also delusional and in some way resembles a mash of both of them, but without the grace that either have.

END SPOILERS

To a certain extent Jon’s relationship with Cat has always been a mystery to me. She would have been an ideal stepmother for him, but because he is a very real reminder of the one time that Ned was unfaithful to her she cannot bring herself to like or even trust the boy. This is where I feel a lot of readers turn against Cat, because they see Jon as the stereotypical hero of the work.

*Spoilers*

I’m not one who appreciates Eddard for his shortcomings either. I think he, like Catelyn, have some terrific qualities, most of which are now (now) best utilized sitting at home in Winterfell. Releasing Jaime and arresting Tyrion had very simple and close to obvious repercussions to consider – if anybody else would have done either, she or he instantly would have been put to death and NOBODY would have questioned it. If ANYBODY would have released the Kingslayer they would be put to death for treason. Catelyn uses her position of authority – as one of “truly powerful women of the realm” – not to make command decisions that make any sense at all, but to further her own completely flawed judgment, over and over again. This (beautifully) makes her no different than many characters in this series but in no way do I see anything that makes me think she differs from the very people we may scorn. I think Tyrion once admitted that Cersei had at least some small level of cunning, Catelyn (perhaps to her credit) has NONE of that yet she continually makes major decisions.

“Would people have felt slighted if Cat Stark had sent a lower-ranking person in her place? ”

You’re going to have to clarify that for me, do you mean to King’s Landing? I think any known man of the North bearing the Hand of the King a seal from his wife about a murder plot on is on would have been taken very seriously. From the very beginning her being the one to bear the message was more of a (relative) clumsy storytelling necessity IMHO.

Or do you mean to parlay with Renly? Wasn’t their an implication (by Catelyn herself) that Rob did it to get her out of his way (or am I misremembering)?

FYI – Don’t get me started on Ned. I thought it was the height of stupidity for Ned to warn Cersei, but from a storytelling perspective it works to slam home the message of “people who do things like those other books you read, get done”. The death of Ned Stark was the the boom that let people know this was like no other series they had read (a thought somewhat mirrored to the verse attributed to Rhaegar on the Trident). That wasn’t even the worst part — NOT accepting Renly’s offer was even worse.

END SPOILERS

I’m beating a dead horse, but Jay I cannot get beyond the attitude I’m seeing here that Catelyn — has COMPLETELY flawed judgment? That she has to have better judgment than people we scorn in order for her to be distinct from them as Ned is? I’m a little confused at your point there, is she just as contemptible as people we scorn because her judgment is no better? Or because she is just as mistake-prone but she has nothing to make up for it? But then you say that she does have some terrific qualities?

And surely, SURELY you understand that a lot of why she couldn’t make better judgments is because she is handcuffed as a woman? If she was a man she would never have to release Jaime secretly, she could have made the call herself and kept the north out of a war, because her authority would be untouched. To not account for Cat’s limited power when you assess her judgment, when you say she is “in some ways” (?) just as mistake prone as Cersei, that seems very unfair.

I don’t think there was much dishonorable about asking Ned to have Jon raised elsewhere, though. 99% of bastards are raised outside of their fathers’ homes. Catelyn’s pride is that of a woman who lives in a society that denies her power and personhood and really needs to be understood in that context. Sometimes people *should* have pride, and Cat may not always deal with it productively but she isn’t always given productive channels either, as in this case.

SPOILERISH

To be honest, I don’t think Robert cared about the amount of guards he had from Storms End. He had the ability to inspire loyalty in people, and I think he took for granted that the guards, no matter who they were, would fight for him.

He was probably right.

Spoilers – Then is interesting to me because I- and I think most of us – feel like he was as loyal to Robb to any/all reasonable extent (I.E. he was loyal, but it wasn’t worth getting himself killed over it when he had really no other option). I like to think that the Theon/Robb friendship was real. It’s interesting to this discussion because unlike Catelyn, Theon was very much put on the spot.

END SPOILERS

I agree with everything you said and would put it plainly by just adding that I think Theon liked/admired/was sincere about Robb to the extent he was able to anyone.

I really felt or wanted to feel like this bond was tight relative to Theon’s ability to form relationships.

I’m going to be a voice of dissent with a lot in the post, but I suppose that’s what makes debate fun 😉

I don’t think “stepmother” is appropriate for Catelyn’s relationship with Jon. She would be Jon’s stepmother if there existed any obligation for her to be familial to Jon, but there isn’t. Jon isn’t the child from Ned’s previous marriage, and according to the story he’s presented, Jon isn’t even from the previous relationship. He was conceived during this current marriage illicitly, and in this society nobody expects Cat to be Jon’s mother substitute. She’s his father’s wife, but in this class of society that very often did not mean much even amongst the trueborn.

I also want to point out that we have no reason to believe that Catelyn would disapprove of Arya having a sword. Beyond this point I must mark this comment for SPOILERS:

…

In fact, later in the series we see that Catelyn never thinks of Brienne or the Mormont women as unnatural for being warriors. They are new to her, and she remarks on the oddness, but she accepts the idea. I mention this because I think it highlights just how much either readers are naturally inclined to perceive female characters on basis of stereotype (Arya is the tomboy Cinderella, so despite us never having a scene between Arya and Cat we conclude that conventional ladylike Cat must disapprove of every little thing she ever does), or how much Martin himself relies on stereotypes, particularly with his women. Or both.

Onward to more controversy, while I do think Jon is going through a lot, I don’t think grief over one’s sibling is comparable to grief over one’s child. That doesn’t justify Catelyn’s words, but it gives a sense of proportion.

And in no “way” is Catelyn is as mistake-prone or as cruel as Cersei. She and Cersei are foils, and well written ones, but these degrees of difference that you mention are not dismissable, they’re the whole point. Everyone has good and bad in them, but the control held over them and the degrees to which we allow XYZ to exhibit itself are also a part of who we are as people, and that speaks to the character of these two women just as much as their incidental similarities.

“There is no question that Catelyn – when offered – wanted for her kids what Cersei had”: There is no question that Catelyn – when offered – wanted for her kids what Cersei had this statement, for example, obscures a lot. A lot of people in Westeros would have wanted for their kids what Cersei had. The Martells have married their daughters to the crown on multiple occassions, Tywin Lannister did it, Olenna and Mace Tyrell did it, basically every single time the crown prince was married someone did it. Even Rickard Stark made powerful marriages for his children, and no they weren’t to the crown, but that’s also because the crown was already married at the time. The only thing I can think of here is that Ned DOESN’T want to do it, but to elevate him to the default is erroneous because we’re told many times that it’s the Starks who are not like other men. I think that’s just main character bias at play. More to the point, the fact that Catelyn only went for it when offered, that’s not as insignificant as you make it out to be. She never stepped over any dead bodies for her children’s status like Cersei did, she didn’t even ingratiate her daughter on the royal family like the Westerlings or Tyrells. That too is an important part of her character. I don’t think you can just dismiss the larger perspective.

I don’t think Catelyn started a war by herself, there was Tywin Lannister too, and we can’t just dismiss his actions because he is a Bad Guy and thus expected to behave badly. Tywin may be pissed, but he also make no attempts to secure the knowledge of Tyrion’s innocence. For all he knew, Tyrion did send the knife. He then has the opportunity to go to the king for justice, but Tywin doesn’t do this. He may be able to get away with it, but that doesn’t make him justified. Most damning for Tywin is the fact that when he retaliates, he sends his goons to attack civilians and with no Lannister banner. This actions don’t come across as open warfare, and there’s got to be a reason for that lack of openness.

“She was kicking a cripple” — Tyrion? But you of course do know that it had nothing to do wit him being a dwarf, but rather being suspected of trying to kill her son? Jon, Arya and Tyrion are designed to tap into geek outcast sympathies, and sometimes it seems like readers read that outcast sympathy into every plot point even if its not relevant, just because geeks identify with it. Tyrion is a dwarf, yes, but that has nothing to do with the arrest, and being a dwarf wouldn’t absolve Tyrion of his crimes were he actually guilty.

I also am rather concerned with what I read in the post and your comments about Catelyn reveling in her agency, being condescending (what?) to Renly’s men and generally … thinking she’s a Somebody? Well, she is a somebody, she’s Lady of the North, daughter of a great house, under Cersei she is one of the most powerful women in the realm. So what if she did enjoy calling on her father’s bannermen? She was in a dark alley with a knife at her throat and managed to get herself into relative security,a nd while she’s mistaken, she thinks this is a man who tried to kill an innocent seven year old. Sorry if I’m being argumentative, I really enjoy the reread you guys are doing, but I’m alarmed at what seems like the suggestion that Catelyn should be meek or apologetic or humble just because it would make her mistakes permissible, even though everyone else (including Tywin and Petyr, not just Ned) makes mistakes. For example I don’t see at all any instance where Catelyn takes pride in knowing the ways of the court, she’s simply self possessed in her knowledge and not apologetic for it. Why should she have to be?

I think her assessment of Renly’s men was very astute, and had it come from Ned people would laud her for being down to earth and practical and not taken in by the southern pageantry. But because, what? She’s a housewife and Renly and Stannis are important manly men, she should know she has no expertise to justify having an opinion?

I mean, who is Tyrion to think he can snark on Mormont’s men and their serious duties at the Wall?

Jay, I’m unsure how her trip to the Vale makes it look like she doesn’t have the legal right of arrest? Catelyn is tracing her authority in the riverlands to her father, that part is taken care of with her speech at the inn where she calls on the men via their loyalty to Hoster Tully.

I think Catelyn was just trying to get to the Vale to get off the dangerous open road. As a woman traveling next to alone she had to take this seriously. She did not plan a trial under those circumstances, that was all her sister, and she didn’t approve. She just can’t do anything about it because she has no clout at the Vale (and her sister can kick her out the Moon Door). For all we know she wanted to bring Tyrion to the king’s justice as soon as it was possible. What’s actually interesting to think about is what would have happened then; would she have been in trouble for accusing the queen’s brother? Or would it have led to the unearthing of Cersei and Jaime’s treason, next to which her actions rather pale?

Ned did tell her to go straight to Winterfell and raise the banners, and they both wanted to avoid war. However, there were plenty of things that could have happened after Tyrion’s arrest besides open war. I mean, Tywin wasn’t even flying his banners, how can we say that it was open war when the attacks were more like terrorism? If Hoster Tully can advise his bannermen to seek the king’s justice, then we can expect Tywin to as well. He only gets away with not doing so because Robert is weak and lets his in-laws walk all over him, but I don’t think Catelyn ever had any previous evidence of Tywin actually flaunting the king.

I think Catelyn feeling she had to act in that moment is pretty reasonable, she is mistaken but she was under duress (her immediate physical safety in presence of a believed attempted murderer, the fact that the Lannisters would know that the Starks Know Something based on her presence).

Ned does use the word “cruel” but Ned also speaks from a place of privilege. There is no way Catelyn would ever be able to A) have a bastard without stigma or penalty or B) raise that bastard in house. When Ned made that comment, Catelyn was asking him to not make her raise him, she does not know that Robert might be likely to kill Jon because Jon might be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Even in our society we give women the right to refuse to raise their husband’s children. That kind of information is disclosed to people before they get into permanent alliances for the very reason that we feel they have the right to choose. Cat just doesn’t have any power, so she does all she can do: beg Ned. But she isn’t asking that Jon not be taken care of, simply that she not be the one to do it. In our modern perspective we think of the nuclear modern family unit as a universal right, but there were many times throughout history where it was really not the norm.

I don’t think Ned would be as permissive about Catelyn’s bastard as she was about his. But readers never have to see him in this situation, so he comes off looking really golden.

I’m beating a dead horse, but Jay I cannot get beyond the attitude I’m seeing here that Catelyn — has COMPLETELY flawed judgment? That she has to have better judgment than people we scorn in order for her to be distinct from them as Ned is? I’m a little confused at your point there, is she just as contemptible as people we scorn because her judgment is no better? Or because she is just as mistake-prone but she has nothing to make up for it? But then you say that she does have some terrific qualities?

And surely, SURELY you understand that a lot of why she couldn’t make better judgments is because she is handcuffed as a woman? If she was a man she would never have to release Jaime secretly, she could have made the call herself and kept the north out of a war, because her authority would be untouched. To not account for Cat’s limited power when you assess her judgment, when you say she is “in some ways” (?) just as mistake prone as Cersei, that seems very unfair.

I don’t think there was much dishonorable about asking Ned to have Jon raised elsewhere, though. 99% of bastards are raised outside of their fathers’ homes. Catelyn’s pride is that of a woman who lives in a society that denies her power and personhood and really needs to be understood in that context. Sometimes people *should* have pride, and Cat may not always deal with it productively but she isn’t always given productive channels either, as in this case.

SPOILERS

Well, she’s a woman traveling all but alone, we’re made aware often enough in the series of the dangers of that. If Tyrion is guilty of what she thinks, then he’ll only interpret her presence in the Riverlands one way: the Starks know something that the Lannisters are willing to commit murder to protect.

I think Catelyn already thinks Tyrion is guilty, but she doesn’t think she has enough evidence to arrest him, so she additionally needed the added danger that resulted from being seen to do so. She was trying to stay unseen, as we see in that chapter, and only once she was seen did her presence in the Riverlands become a liability to Ned and to herself. A lot of factors conspired into that decision. No, it didn’t go good places, but I still feel like saying her judgment is “completely flawed” because she responded without perfect foresight in a situation of immediate duress is unfair.

If Cat and Ned had been able to foresee Tyrion being at that inn and discovering their presence, I bet they would have gone to Robert immediately, though Ned was uncertain just how much Robert could be trusted following the incident with Lady. Surely going to the king for justice after the arrest is not at all orthodox, but in Westeros law is pretty fluid, and she did make her arrest as public and open as possible and we don’t know that she didn’t want the king’s justice. In other words I don’t think the illegality of her act is equal to the illegality of Tywin’s.

And I agree that Tywin is known to be very prideful, but Tyrion himself talks about the pursuit following Catelyn’s lie up the King’s Road, as if he agrees with her assessment that Tywin’s likely reaction to the arrest is to send a party after Catelyn herself. Reaction from Tywin can be expected, but there’s no saying that that reaction has to be what it was.

Regarding “dismiss”, I didn’t say you were dismissing any person, but it seems like you were dismissing the issue of degree regarding the comparison of Catelyn and Cersei, which I feel is counter to Martin’s intent with the intentional (I think it’s intentional, like Jacob H above) parallel constructed between the two.

“For the reader it’s a bit comedic, if i were Jaime we’d simply balk at the very notion.” – Hrmm, interestingly I don’t share this opinion at all, but no way to tell how Martin would write it.

And yes of course Catelyn shoudln’t be a bitch to Jon, or anyone, but when Ned thinks she’s being cruel, I didn’t think that that was the author telling is that his opinion is objective fact, so I suppose I don’t see what “even Ned thinks she’s cruel to him” is supposed to establish other than that it’s Ned’s subjective opinion. My reaction to Ned saying that was certainly not “Oh, this establishes that Catelyn is cruel”, but rather that Ned has the luxury of not knowing what it’s like to deal with his spouse’s infidelity because in this society, men are allowed to have bastards and women aren’t. What seems like cruelty to him is also masked by the fact that he’s never been in her shoes. That said, everyone expects Cat to be unfriendly to Jon especially on occassions like Bran’s near death, yes.

“I think the fact that she was wrong or outright daft an awful lot makes here self-assuredness a target.” Hrmm, well I don’t think any of her decisions other than releasing Jaime was outright daft, and that’s just one decision. About simply being *wrong* though, we’ll have to agree to disagree, sometimes reasonable people do reasonable things that turn out poorly. I think Martin wrote a confident woman who simply can’t predict the future, and who did a folly for love like a lot of other people in the series.

SPOILERS

You know, just to throw this out there, I actually would have no issue with Catelyn’s action regarding Tyrion if she was in a position of power (not in that moment but overall). As you say, the law is fluid and Catelyn took advantage (not meant as a pejorative) of that moment, and though she is in what is perhaps the most optimal position (husband is the new hand, in some regards on her stomping ground and a lady of some distinction) it’s the longview that bothers me. I know this makes me morally objectionable (perhaps not in the setting) but Tywin does what he does because in some regard I think he thinks he somewhat untouchable and relative to the other houses, he probably is (for many reasons, not the least of which is semi-capitulation of the throne in his favor via inactivity). I think Tywin looks at problems from a position of power and can wield it because people know he can and will. I also think ee need to account for Robert’s feeling on the house he married to – they gave him his throne and the post-war Lannister alliance is probably the most important of all.

I always wonder what would have happened if Catelyn was able to take Tyrion to Winterfell and set up defenses as Ned requested. What happens? I see a very pissed off Tywin no matter what happens, and a Tywin who has leverage in KL where Ned is defenseless. I just don’t understand her point. if it’s a king’s justice issue. Legally the hand of the King could have issued the orders himself, sure it may have caused a shitstorm, but it would have been on record. Why? Because don’t they know that Tyrion went to the Wall and even be able to map out a possible return route that likely would have to go through Stark or Tully territory?

I don’t have issues with her objective, I have issues with not being able to fathom what exactly it was. If she is arresting Tyrion for the attempted murder of her son, considering her stature, that has to be a death sentence right? I don’t see the Starks taking a stack of Lannister gold and forgetting.

What do you think she was attempting and does that route end in a manner that isn’t open war?

slightly spoilerish

I just wanted to point out that Catelyn’s distrust of Jon was not completely unfounded or ridiculous. History is filled with examples of bastards that seized control of what they saw as their inheritance, and even killed their half-siblings. The Blackfyre rebellion is the Westrosi version. Even if Jon was totally loyal to Robb or his heirs, Catelyn had no assurance his children would be.
By raising Jon among his trueborn children, Eddard was publicly acknowledging him as his son, and making it much easier for Jon to seize control of Winterfell if he wanted to.

Exactly! Jon was an outsider, and she made sure that her feelings would NEVER be mistaken.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t she have this same attitude towards Theon? Or was it Ned, as well?

Spiolers

Catelyn I think is unintentionally such a disliked character because of how she treats the most popular characters in the book i.e. John, Jamie, and Tyrion. To the readers who develop such an attachment to these characters she appears to make bad decisions or comes off as a “bitch.”

As far as Ned making her stay in the North its a perfectly reasonable request. While Robb could have handled the North alright, the threat of treachery from the South is strongly suspected and in this case you would want her to advise Robb since she would have the most insight and experience.

As far as her treatment of John, remember her house is one of the great houses equal to the Lanisters. We know how Cersie treats Robert’s Bastard’s and while Catelyn is cold and Bitchy towards John she never plots his demise and she even allows the strong bonds to form between her children and him. I think while her inability to get over the insult is a flaw the way she treats him does show that she has a sense of honor, pride, and isn’t capricious or vindictive.

Quite often her observations and advice is spot on. Her assessment of Renly was right and her advice to Robb and her brother was good but seldom followed. The marriage arrangement essentially gave Robb the power necessary to hold the North, but we all know he screwed that up. Even freeing Jamie wasn’t the most horrible of decisions. The Lanisters have great cunning and nearly freed him and it seems perfectly reasonable that Jamie wouldn’t have survived long being captured with all the calls for execution and just the general conditions she found when she freed him. Again her judgment was correct that he keep his word to protect her daughters.

All in all her decisions by themselves appear to be good ones, the mistakes come more from her lack of knowldge of events out of her control. And these seem to be a result of her time in the North. Would she have trusted Petyr or went to the Vale if she seen how her sister had changed? While her actions and decisions annoy me they seem to be reasonable when she makes them.

@ someone wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back up there who asked me “Do you feel that Martin is setting us up to dislike characters intentionally, or is there something more nuanced going on with presentations like Cat?”

My take on it is that some characters are meant to be turned around later, but intentionally given a bad first impression. Others are probably meant to be…oh, I’m not even sure if I can use villain or antagonist, but simply someone that the reader doesn’t like even if they’re not in a literary form sense filling a role of antagonist. For me, because I’m identifying with Jon and Arya from an early point, I feel like Catelyn is the latter. But is she meant to also be an example of simply a woman of her time and place? That is very possible, and something I’m trying to keep in mind as I examine her actions/reasonings/motives.

@ everyone. thank you for continued spoiler warnings, please do keep them, but i have decided to stop reading any comments that are not addressed to me. I skimmed a few not labeled as spoilers and could see even without EVENT spoilers that they might be emotional/character perception spoilers. It’s cool if you’d rather talk to Jay and let me keep wandering through the fields picking flowers, but, er, if you DO want to ask me something please please please put it at the top of your comment and “@ Elena” and then I’ll look. Thanks!!!

Tyrion seeing Cat wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, as I recall. She wanted to get home quietly and with as little notice as possible, but arresting Tyrion was a spur of the moment madness that she acted on without thinking, and since I cannot fathom what her purpose was (and neither can anyone else) I think it’s perfectly reasonable to call it stupid.

Pride is pride, and whether or not she chooses to have it isn’t nearly as relevant as who she chooses to vent her anger on. Jon is not to blame, but he feels her cold wrath regardless. It’s cruel and rather puzzling in a woman who forgave her husband to begin with.

And she is NOT denied personhood. She may not be listened to when she truly needs/wants to be, but she’s FAR from irrelevant!

re: Catelyn vs. Jon

What if there was a poll between the powerful women of Westeros (Cersei, Queen of Thornes, etc.) and the qestions would be as follows:

A. If a Lord of a large house brings an illegitimate child (bastard) to his court and his wife (the Lady of the house) chooses to raise that child equal to her own. What would you think of her? Would you think of her as stupid or as kind and reasonable?

B. Same conditions as in A, but the bastard is either the oldest child (direct heir to the house) or the second oldest (direct heir to the house when the oldest one dies from an “unfortunate accident”). Whould that additional condition change your opinion of the Lady compared to A.

C. How would you behave if your husband brought an illegitimate child to your court?

—-

How do you think would the powerful women answer these questions?

SPOLER ahead

re: Catelyn vs. Tyrion

For all that she knows Tyrion was responsible for the assassionation attempt. She had the dagger and Littlefinger claimed it was Tyrion’s. Then she meets Tyrion on the road (Is he to be blamed for having recognised Catelyn?). Should she have acted or not (the action beeing the attempt to bring Tyrion to justice)? If Tyrion wasn’t a Lannister, then arresting him for a an accused crime would have been the right thing to do, wouldn’t it? But Tyrion is a Lannister and the power of Tywin Lannister is behind him. So, arresting him is suddenly the wrong thing to do? Kind of a double standard, isn’t it? Or is it just consideration of the reality of the situation? By that definition Rebert should never had started his rebellion against the king, as there was a real chance that he could had lost. If he had, would he be declared stupid too? Since he won he is the hero now. So, what is the lesson to be learned here? Success make the means right and failure makes them wrong?

After the decision to arrest Tyrion was made the following actions should be considered separately. Catelyn goal was to ensure that the arrest leads to a positive outcome (from her point of view), which is Tyrions conviction. There are only a couple of things she could have done. Staying with Tyrion in one place would be stupid, as she was in no position to defend herself against Tywin. Going west is either very risky or very stupid or both. The Lannisters are in the west, so going there would increase the chance to loose Tyrion. There is Riverrun in middle, but going there would endanger it, as Riverrun is practically in the backyard of the Lannisters. It would provoke a war much more directly, just because there are so many possibilities and time to do more stupid (irreversible) things. Going south is equally stupid, as there are too many Lannister men whould could re-take Tyrion. That leaves going North or east. Going north is the obvious solution, but the way is long and dangerous and there is the real possibility that Lannister men would catch up with her. Going east is dangerous because of the mountain clans, but it is also the shortest way. It would have worked, weren’t it fo Lysa and her stupid trial.

Should she had arrived in Winterfell successfully, then Tywin would not had attacked. Moving an army all the way to Winterfell through the riverlands and half of the north (Stark land) would take too much time. And even if Tywin tried, by the time he arrived in Winterfell, there would be an official word from the king that should have stopped any rivalries. Then there would be a trial where Tyrion would be found not guilty. Catelyn wouldn’t be happy about it, but there would be no war.

-Spoilers-
“in no circumstance was Tyrion going to die (wrongfully, I might add, though it probably wouldn’t make a difference) and Tywin not seek retribution.”
Really? I would have thought, and I am sure that Catelyn thought, that if she could get Tyrion to face the Kings Justice from the *King*, Tywin would have had to take it meekly or face the entire realm, united behind Robert.

First, she tried to avoid the situation totally – she was trying to hide at the Inn when Tyrion recognised her!
Having ‘met’ him on the road, she realises that he (because she ‘knows’ he is guilty) will figure out why she is there, and simply won’t go back to KL and will avoid justice entirely – once he reaches Lannister lands he will be safe for sure, even against the *Kings* Kings justice.
So she has to take him prisoner or he gets away scot free.
Having taken him prisoner, as others have pointed out, she really has only two choices – north or east. So she picks the obvious one, loudly for the inevitable pursuit, and follows the other, surely intending to get Tyrion to face the Kings Justice from the actual King, in time. Even if she stayed safely in the Vale and merely wrote to the King from there, she will get something from him and Tyrion is still secured awaiting justice. That would be the best result all round for her, and all of Westeros except the Lannisters.
Mad Lyssa screws things up and is all history from there.

I see a lot of railing against this decision, but little acknowledgment that her hand was forced against her will and that she also had a reasonable plan with a reasonable chance of success – the best that could be hoped.

-Spoilers-

Heh, you misunderstood so badly I’ll come back anyway and have one more go… 🙂

There is no killing Tyrion.
There is no marching on Tywin.

You hold Tyrion in secure, but comfortable (as possible) and honourable (relatively) custody – notice he was unbound once he was unable to escape.
You *don’t* bring him to Kings Landing, where the Queen can go nuts and all hell can break loose.

You send a message to the King, telling him that Tyrion is accused of murdering Bran and held securely but safely, awaiting the Kings Justice.
The king *must* respond. His wife’s brother is in custody, and accused of murdering a noble child. Its simply not something he can let slide. He also can’t just say ‘release him’ without looking like the most un-kingly ass in history – Roberts an oaf, but not that stupid and Cersei is more likely to get his back up than anything else if she hassles him.
The king has little option but to order Tyrion brought to KL to face justice (well, he could go to Tyrion, but that isn’t happening, is it!)
At that stage the Lannister’s can no longer move on Tyrion or his captors directly without convincing everyone he is guilty. Their best chance is to fight it ‘in court’ so to speak.
Further, the Starks haven’t done anything unreasonable, and should Tyrion be found innocent and released then they have earned nothing more from the Lannisters that the already evident dislike and enmity. Tywin isn’t going to start a war under Roberts nose if Tyrion is released safely without mistreatment.

The most likely net result is that Robert becomes a semi-active party, with direct orders given out and the Lannister’s can’t do a lot to prevent Tyrion from at least *facing* the King’s (literally) Justice, without directly crossing an active Robert (which is going to *really* activate and motivate him!), which they aren’t (supposedly) strong enough to do. Obviously we know that Regicide is their preferred option, but it isn’t a reasonable consideration for Catelyn.

Logically it should work. The two problem points are a) Mad Lyssa screwed things completely and b) the Lannister’s used Regicide as an option, removing Robert from the equation in favour of Joffrey-Cersei.

SPOILERS

I bring up the Aryn situation only as piling on to a hypothetical event of Robert actually marching against Tywin because of the attempted murder of Bran. If Robert is swayed at all, he would be exposed to that information as well (proof or not). For the record, I don’t think Robert would have done anything, but I do think that’s the only avenue they have (excluding doing nothing and doing something smart like just having Tyrion killed — which of course runs up against the Stark weakness). Bringing Tyrion to Robert is just as likely to have Catelyn arrested as anything else (oddly, that would be justice). If the ultimate goal was to present Tyrion to Robert, she’s worse off than I thought.

You have Tyrion (wrongfully) killed and then you sit and wait on the rest of the Lannisters.

SPOILERS

Yes, Tywin reacted “pretty quick”, but the continent is also pretty big and moving armies around is a big deal, so it must have taken some time. As far as I remember the first reaction was Gregor’s ravaging. The actual war started only after Robert’s and Ned’s deaths.

So, the next question is: Was this reaction to be expected? And who could have anticipated it?

Catelyn doesn’t know Tywin. She may know him as a man of court, but not as a man of war. Whatever she knows comes from some stories other have told her. One example is that Tywin was quite passive during the last war. He acted only when Aerys’ defeat was unavoidable. Ned could surely have told her that story.

So, if she doesn’t know Tywin she must apply common sense. Again, it is common practice to have a hostage from the opposite party. The idea is that your enemy won’t attack you out of fear of loosing that hostage. A good example and also right under Catelyn’s nose is Theon. And Tyrion is a good hostage. He is the heir to Casterly Rock, since Jaime and Cersei cannot be. Why would Tywin attack (= start a war) and go against common practice? Doesn’t he care about his son.

Sure, Theon is different, but the concept is there. Having a hostage creates an incentive to not directly go to extremes, but to try softer solutions first. One could think there would or should multiple steps of escalation. Negotiations first, and only *after* they fail there is a war. Starting with the most extreme option doesn’t look very reasonable. And Tywin actually is reasonable, writes letters and stuff (he says so to tyrion: “Some wars are won not with swords but with letters”, or something to that effect). Why not this time?